Eu terrain update

[molnibalage]

Is the link usable for averagae users?

[Luk]

Is the link usable for averagae users?

Yes, it is.
Luk

BTW - I tested it more times in F4AF. I can say, I prefer SPTinstall to Htti.exe.
It produces better haze around the horizont. It looks Htti uses another algoritmus for higher(at least L1) levels - it makes some additional interpolation in L1, but has also more "stairy" horizont.
SPTinstalled is more like this:



winter:



Htti install was more like this:

[molnibalage]

What about installation process for different versions?

[Luk]

It will be standard PMC multiversion installer one day. This is just work-version in progress, "VIP", secret
You dont need to install it, just open in TV

But if you want to test it in game, put L2,O2,map + make mea(I did not included mea in zip), then direct SPT.exe install where to search...
Then you would fix the normals. Standard old-school process.
But you will need HITILES pack also. Textures are not included yet. Its just for developers...
I am preparing Texture.zip/bin, blessed by Tom.

Luk

[Luk]

I have realized, that posted reference maps in photobucked are scaled down to 1024x1024 pixels. I have uploaded them in 2048x2048 resolution. It looks, I must zip them and upload in megaupload...
Borders and features are not good visible in 1/2 resolution.

Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Is this the payware HiTiles or the ones included in SP4.2?

Regards, Tobias

[Luk]

Is this the payware HiTiles or the ones included in SP4.2?

It uses payware HiTiles pack.

BTW: I think Tacedit is not able to load background image larger then 1024x1024. I tried to load some 2048 image and it was scaled down. So photobucked images are good enough (you just have to convert them to BMP format after download).

There is another one background image I have added. It shows internal boundaries. I have tried to define fine projection, but it is not 100% accurate (but near). You can see exact Falcon boundaries under overlayered image. It can be usefull for pack map/parent links I think....
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab4/ ... s_PAKs.jpg


Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Is there any chance to get it working without the payware tiles?

Thank you for the background image.
I just detected that some import-export-stuff screwed up my border parent links... I will have to rework at least the german-france border, the iron curtain, suisse and Austria seem to be OK... Well, at least it doesn't get boring.

Regards, Tobias

[Luk]

Is there any chance to get it working without the payware tiles

Yes, it is. I will prepare dedicated European texture.zip (based on payware tiles of course).
Wait for mail please.
Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Maybe I could do some handtiling in parts of germany if I get the texture.bin working.

Best regards and thanks for your work!
Tobias

[ccc]

Glad to hear you making progress on Europe mod.

some thoughts..

- dedicated europe tiles would be great to improve the europe-looking at high altitude.. tho falcon community is short of talented tile artists for long time.

-Adding more european-style buildings in village/town objectives, then placing trees( pine? like those in AFB or SAM site) in these objectives, may help the europe-looking atmosphere at low altitude.. with minial workload on DB. Regarding the density of airdefense systems deployed in europe, i think most simmers would like to fly as low as possible in this theater.

[Luk]

- dedicated europe tiles would be great to improve the europe-looking at high altitude.. tho falcon community is short of talented tile artists for long time.

You are right ccc. But I made the decision already. I'm still not recovered from the joy ,springing from Tom's kindness. He told me, we can use his tiles in maximum resolution by the way! (I can also recognize Swiss meadows and villages in his tiles, so it is more European, than Korean set BTW)
So I want to skip this part and rather focus on tiling/campaign creation.
To avoid misunderstanding (dedicated means "only for Europe" here).

-Adding more european-style buildings in village/town objectives, then placing trees( pine? like those in AFB or SAM site) in these objectives, may help the europe-looking atmosphere at low altitude.. with minial workload on DB. Regarding the density of airdefense systems deployed in europe, i think most simmers would like to fly as low as possible in this theater.

This is my dream ccc.
Trees are already possible in AF(But we must take care about this, its for AF dedicated cam only).
I have also a selection of valleys for flying uder wires - just icing on the cake
Mentioned things are possible without DB edits. It is also possible to substitute some "Asian" textures in AF stock of objects without any edits.

But there is also another goodies in my store of dreams.
It will be perhaps possible in som F4 version with "editable" db.
I am dreaming about some underground AB - like Bihac (Zeljava) or some Swizz ABs.
Its not hard to model it for me - in 3D with textures. The first stage could be just a textured mesh (generic objective, perhap just some unused obj. substitution) placed nearby some finished default airbase. There will be no hot-spots.. etc for AI planes in our simple objective. Just a mesh - dungeon + part of textured hill, seamlesly integrated with terrain and placed on leveled tile beside AB. During th MP session you can take a trip into the dungeon with your friend (you can park your plane after the mission for exmple.. )

OK ok, back to the ground.

Luk
P.S (mentioned things are not the ones I wanted to consult in another post)

[derStef]

nice thoughts out there gentlemen!


but at fist we have to decide what kind of scenario we have planned in the campaign... i would say the biggest interest lies in an mid '80s ColdWar scenario as discussed in the other topic.

that gives us the definition of the area of most interest on the map. in this case it is Germany, espacially the area around the inner german border (IGB)....

that will be the area where all the action is going on... so this area should have the highest priorty for terrain fixin first..

further areas that need special attention:
- the coastline from the Netherlands up to Kaliningrad...
- western part of Czechoslovakia and Poland

here you can see the area of interest that we should focus on first..
Lets get all neccessary Airbases, Army Bases and stuff into that area first..

http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx87 ... c88eeb.jpg


WHAT DO YOU THINK?????

to be continued...

[Luk]

Ouch I was here in last days, but I did not catch your posts Stef.
I just wanted to say, I have added most of west-german ABs in last week. It means I work outside "my" area. I do it becouse nobody is interested in handtiling (I am quite happy). If somebody is interested, I will post the last version + we can fill SnakeMans excel sheet etc. So at the moment I make also whole West Germany.
Today I will start to add Pershing sites. After that I will start to place East German ABs + Denmark ABs.
I am able to add about 5-7 ABs during the evening sometimes.

I have huge stress in my job now as well.
But I continue L2 edits throught the nights sometimes. I did not touch the CAM file, just the terrain.
I want to modify the CAM file very soon, but it needs some discussion first. I dont have the energy for "politics" at the moment. But it is an important part of modding, so I will push myself to open the discussion soon.

The discussion should include objectives ID compatibility, Tobi's changes (there was some confusion) etc. I want to be sure, before start CAM edits.
I guess I can do some flyable airwar campaing test quite fast, when mantioned things become clear.

Luk
P.S. and yes, your rectangles (or rather the whole box) show the area of interrest quite good, just the red area should be extended to west a bit (you are very near to the WGer./EGer. border) IMHO

[derStef]

Ouch I was here in last days, but I did not catch your posts Stef.
I just wanted to say, I have added most of west-german ABs in last week. It means I work outside "my" area. I do it becouse nobody is interested in handtiling (I am quite happy). If somebody is interested, I will post the last version + we can fill SnakeMans excel sheet etc. So at the moment I make also whole West Germany.
Today I will start to add Pershing sites. After that I will start to place East German ABs + Denmark ABs.
I am able to add about 5-7 ABs during the evening sometimes.

Great mate, yeah esp the Airbases in Germany are very important, you know.

I have huge stress in my job now as well.
But I continue L2 edits throught the nights sometimes. I did not touch the CAM file, just the terrain.
I want to modify the CAM file very soon, but it needs some discussion first. I dont have the energy for "politics" at the moment. But it is an important part of modding, so I will push myself to open the discussion soon.

The discussion should include objectives ID compatibility, Tobi's changes (there was some confusion) etc. I want to be sure, before start CAM edits.
I guess I can do some flyable airwar campaing test quite fast, when mantioned things become clear.

Totally agree, keep on terrain only fixes atm, maybe only adding the mentioned important Airbases.
Btw are you also fixing the existing airbases? "Right RWY direction"? "leveling" terrain below Airbases?

P.S. and yes, your rectangles (or rather the whole box) show the area of interrest quite good, just the red area should be extended to west a bit (you are very near to the WGer./EGer. border) IMHO

yeah mate, agreed, but it was just to give an overview, what i think, but yeah should be good for our first try!

[Luk]

Totally agree, keep on terrain only fixes atm, maybe only adding the mentioned important Airbases.
Btw are you also fixing the existing airbases? "Right RWY direction"? "leveling" terrain below Airbases?

To be clear Stef - there was not single AB in the new terrain in the begining. After my succesfull import+fixes of partialy handtiled Czech area, there were new detailed ABs compatibile with the "CAM" file I have sent to Tobi. Then I started to create another new ABs. I am connecting them to the road system and sure, I am also leveling them. So there are not any "buggy" bases in new terrain. I am not fixing existing ABs (but I am adding them as new bases). We can choose new objectives for them, or let them as in ver.6 (if good) - but still we should relink them. I think it is not problem or double work - they have bad links (huge numbers) becouse they were not connected to the road system in old terrain.

In normal way, I would also add new objective into the CAM file, but as I said - this time I would rather discuss compatibility problems etc. first. It is better to think twice at the begining...

BTW: If somebody has a spatial wish (objective) - you can send it here (for example nukeplant, base...) and I can prepare the terrain for it...
Luk

[Snake Man]

Red Dog have done great work for all PMC theaters regarding airbase realism work. How much do you plan to change his view of the airbases in Europe theater?

[Tobias Adam]

Ok, so I'm back on track and have almost finished my engineer exam... What's up next? I'm trying to get ready for takeoff with a buddy to check the airbases for correct leveling, looking strange rivers, misplaced bridges etc with Luks new terrain. Does that make sense (besides having some fun) at the current state?

You can't take off from Kiel- Holtenau at the current state. Your plane gets destroyed on the runway. I'd like to test every airbase in the theater in real 3D for this reason.

The terrain still seems to need some fine-tuning, but Luks terrain is real good. Well done

Best regards,

Tobias

[Snake Man]

It takes way too long time to check the airbases in-game 3D. Sure that is the final place where the results can be seen... but terrainview still gives accurate info on the finalized L2 file.

You'll save much time if you do the checking in terrainview, just see that the airbase and surrounding elevation points are leveled and it will be OK in-game too.

[spit]

Really like the idea of a new rebuild europe theater. Would be great to simulate the NATO missions that are held in the TRA's above holland and germany.
The Dutch mil bases are really crap, elevation heading and rwy strips are wrong.
Please fix at least the mil bases so that we can do some coop with other country's.
Here is some usefull information about every CENOR country
http://www.cenor.org/pages/service.html -> publications Netherlands

thx

[Tobias Adam]

It takes way too long time to check the airbases in-game 3D. Sure that is the final place where the results can be seen... but terrainview still gives accurate info on the finalized L2 file.

You'll save much time if you do the checking in terrainview, just see that the airbase and surrounding elevation points are leveled and it will be OK in-game too.

The strange thing is that Kiel Holtenau is rather flat- there is one airbase in the alps that is totally unleveled, but you can take off from that one while you can't take off from Kiel (Kiel is in the flat north of Germany).

Regards, Tobi

[Luk]

Hi all.

Some questions/comments deserve quite complex answers - but I am currently finishing my two RL projects, so I will reply over the weekend. I am sorry.

just a small comment to Kiel- Holtenau AB.
This AB is not placed in your ver. of L2 Tobi (Tobi has a little bit younger L2, than the one I have uploaded here - but it is also obsolete now). BTW I think it is not very large airbase (mostly for helis). I have added it as airstrip W-E.

This is Eu updated terrain before
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab4/ ... BEFORE.jpg
Here you can see hand-placed Kiel-Holtenau airstrip.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab4/ ... _AFTER.jpg

You can see, the natural/unmodified terrain elevations are not flat here. It is 3 - 80 ft in high. Even 2 feets can cause leveling problem. Remember this, when mixing an old "cam" with new terrain. BTW More then just 1 Swiss AB are unleveled - look better, they are placed over field/forrest/river...

You can see leveled terrain on the second picture. You can also see some aditional differences there.
I think also multispaned bridges need leveling (so they are leveled). Usually I try to let the road system as simple as possible (but clear). Here I have added 2 big bridges (quite unussual). I have also connected the highway to the west (this highway was not finished in 1993 - the data source). Dont worry abou historical inacurracy, there were a lot of old roads in this direction in 80ths.
Here is our situation in TV:

BTW - you can also see corrupted city-polygon on this picture. It is also another reason, why I painted all cities/ towns by hand in our new terrain...

uff - I wanted make just "few words" answer here.
Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Great work!

If you could look into my head, I could give you a picture of Kiel Holtenau...

Kiel has both, a smaller airstrip (mostly for civil purposes, if any military use at all) and a helicopter squad (MFG 5) operating Seahawk helicopters stationed in the military part of the harbor.
And yes, the airstrip is rather small.
I like Kiel very much, I often go there in my holidays

You are doing a great work on this, keep it up. Good luck on your RL projects too.

Best regards, Tobias

[RingoSurf]

c'mon, c'mon, I can not wait to fly over Europe, is also working on files relating to the campaign?
thanks for your work

[Luk]

just a small overview of the current stage:


You can see the ABs as yellow spots (airstrips are smaller).
I am adding DDR bases now. Then I want to add some few Polish, Swedish, Russian(2 are already done) bases + 2-3 Austrian/Italian ABs....

Hope I will be able to answer all your questions this weekend.
Thanks for patience.
Luk

[Tobias Adam]

I will be away for one, two or even more weeks- we got a few people on holiday, one boss is ill for some time and a lot of trouble going on... Maybe I'm even going to estonia for about a week.

So, I think I could help out in the middle of september or so- Is there anything I can do on the objectives then? Luk, you seem to be very busy as well- any help needed, or do we just "delay the next release"?

Best regards, Tobi

[Luk]

Hi Tobi.
Don't worry (I know, you don't ), your time will come.

I wrote in another post, I want to uppload "preAlpha" version soon. It is true. It is because I will be very busy by RL soon. I just need to fix some few basic things. It si - add dogfight module(UI), update campaign map(UI) and few other "odds" (preplanned mission setup for example - I am not sure, if it works).

I am divaricate a bit. On the one hand, I would like to release finalized, fine tunned working campaign. But it will cost a lot of time still. I want to continue my work in the future, but must "synchronise" it with busy RL. On the other hand, my current campaign "as is" is enjoyable in my opinion. So I would like to have something out, but release it in silence - for people interested. I will be calmer when something out, if only for reasons of safety/protection/prevention of an accident for example. I dont think now, that someone want to kill me, but world can be quite dangerous place sometimes - for example my previous laptop was destroyed by lighting strike year ago

I hope Sherlock will help me with UI bugs/enhancements.
Thanks.
Regards
Luk

EDIT: Tobi, you can help to prepare TE file (cam derivate) in the near future for example. You did it at least once, so you know the process.
EDIT2: Just to be clear - "update campaign map" - I will do the map by myself, just need help howto put it inside the sim.

[Snake Man]

if only for reasons of safety/protection/prevention of an accident for example.

RAR up the changed files and send to me please. They are kept safe here and just in case it would be good to have them here now, so if something happens at least the unfinished work is here which we can use / build on.

[Tobias Adam]

Luk,

you can send me the files anytime, I will be checking the mailbox not daily, but at least at the weekends. I just don't have the time to do a lot of work. I will then start editing as soon as I find the time to do so.
I think I could find some "beta-testers" in my family

May god bless and protect you all See you, and have a nice weekend

[Sherlock]

I hope Sherlock will help me with UI bugs/enhancements.
Thanks.
Regards
Luk

Glad to help out anyway I can Luk (as time permits). I just moved into a new house so my time is limited right now. Let me know what you need help with and I will do what I can. Just may take a little longer....!

[Luk]

Hi all and Merry Christmas.
It is the time for small tasting

Code: Select all

Eu terrain update demo (mainly for AF)

howto install:
1. I suppose, you have PMC Europe already installed, you need hitiles pack also (sorry)
-make copy of Eu "europe1" folder and rename it to "europe_89" (so your PMC campaigns remain intact)

2. copy "Europe" folder from this zip file to "Theaters" folder

3. copy your hitiles texture.zip file into the "terrdata2\texture" folder

4. go into the "terrdata2\texture" folder and copy the textures located inside "texture_update.zip" file into your hitiles "texture.zip" file

5. Now you need to produce all the terrain lods and fix the normals:
-for install use SPTinstall.exe (included in the terrain folder)
-fix the normals via LxNormalFix.exe (included in the terrain folder + helpfull "fix.txt" file- command for AF)

6. update "theater.lst" file in your Falcon root folder - add this row: 
Theaters\Europe\europe_89.tdf
---------------------------------

Now you can select Europe 1989 scenario.
Enjoy the dogfight and TE in the central area.
I did not include campaigns yet (your campaigns are the copy of PMC ATM).


there is "info-ABs_picts" folder included in the zip file
JPG pictures of added and fixed airbases are situated inside the folder.
Eu_bases_1024.jpg can be opened in tacedit
Eu_bases_2048.jpg is in full scale
legend:
small yelow spots - AB adden into the terrain (textured and leveled only)
transparent circle/aura around the AB- the model is fixed/added
solid colour circle around the AB - squadron added into the campaign(cam file not included yet)

Similar picture is used as the kneemap as well.

This is a demo for people/developers interested. It is usefull for TE and dogfight in the central EU area.

here you can download it:
http://www.mediafire.com/?29jafixa9wie302

here you can see areas, I will retile in near future (they are just temporary tiled at the moment)

They are not finished yet, because my CATE map was not finished at the time. My configs were written differently than others.
My configs produced also flat sea, so they enlarged the dry terrain a little. It was an old approach, now I want more sea/water in certain areas. I can flattern it later - we are able to manage highmaps now. That is why I want to change coastal areas in some places.
Thanks to Monster's program it is possible to combine tiling in "tile resolurtion" (not in segment resolution). It means the work can be combined via masks etc.

I am also working on highmap, where all the lakes are flattered. In current stage of terrain I did it by hand in some places only.

This is not a release of theater. It is rather a demo for dogfight and TE in the central area for people interested in it.
I can upload the CAM as well, but it is db related a bit. I can modify it for use with default db, but....

Luk
P.S it is just a light version, no UI files included (just a campmap). It share the same art folder with PMC Eu -means you should backup the PMC campmap pair first

[ccc]

great job!

[Tobias Adam]

Hi Luk,

thanks for your new map. However, I wanted to use it in FF5.5 and had some problems... I copied the texture.zip (with payware HiTiles) from F4AF (should match yours, I think, FF 5.5.3 doesn't use the HiTiles anymore, so I used that one from F4AF) to the textures folder, copied the new texture.bin and added the new textures into the texture.zip. After running SPTinstall.exe and LxNormalfix.exe, I even created the dds files for FF5.5, but found out that I do not have any textures at all.
Also, when opening the file in TerrainView, I get some mixed up textures, missing tiles and so on what seems to be an indication that my texture.zip and texture.bin do not match.

Just for comparing: My texture.zip is now 117Mb in size when doing a right-click on it. Total size is 123.392.642 Bytes. Is your texture.zip somewhere in that range?

I could then at least check if this one works in FF as well.

Tobi

[Luk]

Hi Tobi, nice to see you.

Updated zip(PCX textures) is 121 723 443 in size - it is aproximately 117MB (wincomander shows 116MB). It works fine for me. Strange you have problems in Terrainview. I will try to check downloaded package in TV.

I worked also with dds version of HitilesAF. I needed it for Monsters terrainEditor (also tested the result in FF5x about half year ago). I produced dds files via some free image viewer - it was Xnview or Irfan. Sorry, I am not sure which one it was...but it worked fine.

I will check the package tomorrow - very busy ATM sorry.

thanks for report
Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Hi Luk,

I got it. I used the wrong terrainview, shame on me. Oooops. The texture.zip is alright then. Well, the reason why it was not working with FF5.5.3 is that I did not create the dds files. SnakeMan had asked this question before in some thread over at freefalcon, but got not reply... He found out here, and I followed his advice given.
So, basically it's like this:
- Install latest PMC europe theater
- Grab a copy of the F4AF hitiles file
- copy that into Freefalcon\Theaters\europe\terrdata\texture
- add your textures
-copy your texture.bin
-copy your L2 file and the other stuff from terrdata\terrain
-run SPTinstall and LxNormalFix
-open Freefalcon and make the europe theater the current one
- run Freefalcon\Utilities\TerrainTexCompress.exe to create the dds files.
All together, it takes about 30- 60 minutes or so...
Do not copy the weather directory, as it will screw up the lighting in FF5.5- plain white aircraft surfaces because the light is so bright... Be sure to have your sunglasses ready They must have changed the lighting, so just use the one from the korea directory.

The te_new.tac seems to not work, I used my old one and will try to get the new one working, maybe I also made a mistake with copying the files. Those from 5.5 do not work anymore, that's for sure.
At least I got it running! Yeah!
You need to copy the objects folder from Korea and also the subdirectories from campaign\save.
All together, it strongly reminds me to the "dance" we had in ealier Falcon days. I will try to keep it up with your L2 file and FreeFalcon, also with the tac and cam file.

The alps look great in F4 FF5.5 with the advanced lighting. You did some great job, the terrain looks outstanding. I tried some flight along the coast around Kiel, it just looks great so far.

Thanks for helping and for the great terrain.

Greetings, Tobi

[Luk]

The te_new.tac seems to not work, ...

Tobi I think you have already an answer, how to fix it - remember the hilltop objectives.
There are much many hilltops now - this version contains realistic SAM placement for central area(but no units in tac file) - the basic objective for them is hilltop CT " 3425"(if I can remember correctly). Of course it can be changed/converted into regular SAM objective (find some for FF5). I know the hilltop I have used has not PT points for SAM defined, but it looks good in 3D, vehicles are scatered among few trees and fire the missiles agressively...

Check SnakeMans conversion script in this thread viewtopic.php?f=63&t=22318
You can also see another objectives I am using inside the CAM.

I think it is very fast to convert it for FF5. Just a note - note is for FF but also AF - you will perhaps find one strange army base at sea - dont worry this is base objective for super ship - the vessels terminator. It looks like a pier + helipad/sea platform in my install (I have modified DB). So in the campaing it can be the lonesome sea platform, or platform with very small scout helicopter squadron, or platform with SAM, or huge ship. But for you it can contain trees as well ....
Another issue is, you will find some 2runway airbases instead 1 runway in the central area. It is becouse I prefered orientation over runway quantity for ABs sometimes. There is big gap for runway orientation in F4 database. So I converted one 2 runway 45degree airbase into the 1 runway. But naturaly without modified db, you will see parallel runways. It is just appearance/reality issue, no strong impact for TE.
I thaught about to release central campaing in advance for default db (DB edits are cool+ also very immersive), but I am very busy now.

good luck
Luk

[Tobias Adam]

I think this is the same issue now, I will try to delete the hill tops or convert them. It is indeed tricky, because the FF5 database is locked and nobody will give me any information about which objective is what number.

I also found out that all objectives are broken with the new te_new.tac. I clicked "repair objectives"- and everything was fine. But I will try to have a look on that hill tops within the next few weeks.

Tobi

[Luk]

I think you would use SP4 SAM objective with as low CT number as possible. I am about 250km out of my house now, but I can check it later.

I also found out that all objectives are broken with the new te_new.tac. I clicked "repair objectives"- and everything was fine.

This is strange. Only all old airbases should be destroyed. I dont think I destroyed any other objectives.
Some ABs are destroyed for 2 reasons - 1. some are not fixed and dont have terrain prepared 2. It helps to keep the war in limited area.

For example Kiel has still old AB model - it does not match new terrain(so it is destroyed and humans and AI can not use it) -sorry, next version will have fixed Kiel airstrip + port + army base, as well as flyable Seahawk squadron (no kidding).

Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Ah, so then I only checked destroyed airbases.

I clicked an airbase- destroyed. Clicked another airbase- destroyed. I just couldn't find any that was operatable... Bad luck...

You know that scientist that could prove that 60 can be devided by any other number that is bigger than 0 and not bigger than 60?
He made a test:
60:1 = OK
60:2 = OK
60:3 = OK
60:4 = OK
60:5 = OK
Ok, let's use some bigger steps:
60:10 = OK
60:20 = OK
60:30 = OK
Fine. So, let's use some random numbers:
60:15 = OK
60:30 = OK.
60:60 = OK
Fine. We proved it by testing that 60 can be divided by all numbers bigger than 0 and not bigger than 60

That must be pretty much what happened to me

Flyable seahawk squadron sounds very good. Great work!
By the way: The 5th naval squadron (Marinefliegergeschwader 5) operating the seahawk mainly for SAR is relocated to Nordholz. They go away from Kiel in 2012. What a pity, I liked their show during open house on the kiel week. Maybe this year is the last chance to see their open house... I'll be there
The airport itself will stay the same, the MFG 5 uses their own helicopter place inside the military part of the kiel harbor.

Tobi

[Luk]

It is quite common in contemporary days - all the relocations, units disbanding...etc. Here in the Czech republic it is quite stabilized at the moment. The "diete" was extremely drastic during the 90ths. I am now for about two weeks in north-east part of our country and I can say it is funny place for AC spoter. I can see 3-5 Gripen dogfights per day. The only drawback is my RL work productivity is quite poor at the time - still running from office to balcony ...

In my native home, there is a descent route to Prag Ruzyne for civilian traffic - so no dogfights. But on the other hand I can see very, very low passes over my roof there. Sometimes JAS39s, sometimes L159 Alcas.

If you need operational ABs, check the jpg/map (included in the package - 2 resolutions). It is visible on the kneemap as well.

Luk