[ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data

[ccc]

In the past-RPG/SP era, this part was handled by true experts working on real thing.
As tweaking this part of data may affect the balance or realism in sim, most falcon versions keep the settings untouched for years..

i am not an expert in this field- and don't plan to seriously touch it. just start a thread for sharing thoughts and discussing this interesting playground.

here's a screenshots - open F4browse, go to Radar data sectoin, open [Radar data 1]..


[Used By] - shows what vehicle/ac use this radar. most F-16C use it..so the data is modelled for some variant of APG-68. ( hmm.. i found F-16A use radar 87, but all the same radar value as radar 1)

[Acd Usage] - means this radar type also used in [ac definition -sensor types] record.

[Radar Flags] - features of this radar. options look quite straigthforward.

Now comes to the main [RCD Data] page..

Sound 162 - which beep sound used when painted by this radar. it directs to #162 sound.

RWR 0.6 - chance to alert radar warning receiver/interceptability? 60% chance to alert radar painted ac?

Beam Width 0.0401426 - radar wave beam width, 360 deg =3.14159, so it is about 4.6 deg?

Look Down range 0.6 - this one seems related to [ Range ] value.. 0.6 means 60% of range value?

Beam Dist 0.7 - i don't know what it means.. 70% of range value? for what?

No name slot 37 - ??

Low RWR Gain 0.6 - ?

Azimuth 1.0472 - this means radar sweep angle, = 120 deg.

Chaff Chance 0.012 - as it says, but the value is hard to set.

Data Index 0 - ??

Sweep Time 1.0472 - in second? unit unknown? sweep 120 deg?

Range 213812 - radar range in feet? unit? 213812 ft is about 65km.

Lock time 4000 - time to lock on a target, 4000ms? unit = ms?

ECM range 0.48 - i think it means this radar can resist ECM when tgt within 48% of max radar range?

Min 152.74 - well.. minimal radar working range in feet? that's 46.5 m.??

====================
Once in a while i found a site with a lot of publised radar data, covering major combat ac in the world.. but the site was gone..maybe janes or other printed material could provide such info..well, the info is not classified, just beam width, sweep angle, output, and vague range number.

BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.

[molnibalage]

RWR 0.6 - chance to alert radar warning receiver/interceptability? 60% chance to alert radar painted ac?

As for radar detection exist also an equation for RWR detection.This is a range modifier as I know. I'm not sure.

Beam Width 0.0401426 - radar wave beam width, 360 deg =3.14159, so it is about 4.6 deg?

Vertical azimuth for radar beam. Width of all or one bar? I don't know how use AI the radar...

Look Down range 0.6 - this one seems related to [ Range ] value.. 0.6 means 60% of range value?

Yes, if target is in ground clutter.

Beam Dist 0.7 - i don't know what it means.. 70% of range value? for what?

This range modifier works same way as look down but the activation trigger is the min. doppler speed. If the radial approaching speed is below min. doppler speed (feet/sec) modifier is counted.

No name slot 37 - ??

RWR symbol on the RWR sreen. You can find some number in RP5 manual. I have used it when I set in my mode old AC symbol to J-6A.

Low RWR Gain 0.6 - ?

Check the first line of my post. I don't know which is which. --> Maybe is written in RP5 manual. (Are they always the same?)

Azimuth 1.0472 - this means radar sweep angle, = 120 deg.

True but only for AI. Su-27 and MiG-29 is problematic because their azimuth values are only about 30 (!!) degrees. Their radar antennas requires more serios mechanical steering as western radars. Values also to big for MiG-21s and maybe for MiG-23s.

Chaff Chance 0.012 - as it says, but the value is hard to set.

Why is hard? I don't understand.

Sweep Time 1.0472 - in second? unit unknown? sweep 120 deg?

I have no idea how affects on AI behavior.

Range 213812 - radar range in feet? unit? 213812 ft is about 65km.

Yes, in feet but you should check the radar equation in RP5 manual to understand how it is used. As I can remember this is the detection rage if target is "clean". There are no beaming, ECM, chaff, ground clutter and it's RCS value is 1.0 (Falcon doesn't use square meter, it has it's own unit to radar equation)

Lock time 4000 - time to lock on a target, 4000ms? unit = ms?

Maybe this affect on AI response time. I have to test it on SAMs and other AC, is not an easy issue.

ECM range 0.48 - i think it means this radar can resist ECM when tgt within 48% of max radar range?

Range modifier as beam and look down. So if you use ECM, you are in ground clutter and you are beaming all three are counted theoretically.
ECM can be problematic becauase is not counted purely the modifier as I see in some cases. There are ECM strength for each vehicle. This is same for all vehicles (0, max. is 125) but if you set to about 50-70 you can defeat AMRAAM (!) just using the ECM. Other problem that the ECM is not omnidirectional since RP5. Is it clear what I'm saying? So ECM range modifier maybe counts purely if you fly straight ahead to the emitter and also the ECM strength is 0.

Min 152.74 - well.. minimal radar working range in feet? that's 46.5 m.??

Min doppler speed in feet/sec. Maybe you use too old F4Browse I can see the whole text.

====================

Once in a while i found a site with a lot of publised radar data, covering major combat ac in the world.. but the site was gone..maybe janes or other printed material could provide such info..well, the info is not classified, just beam width, sweep angle, output, and vague range number.

For red AC many data are wrong.

BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.

I have done it hundreds or thousands. Answer is definitely YES!

Is it enough detailed?

[ccc]

ah- thanx for your input.

BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.

I have done it hundreds or thousands. Answer is definitely YES!

great. how about sharing your tweaking and test results? say, many factors can affect the result of aircombat( i mean the BVR detection-react stage), and all the edits should have a [basic value] for comparsion.

aircombat in BVR detection stage, the f4browse edits could related to..
Radar Data section
RWD Data section
Vehicle-aircraft Radar CS value

did you tweak the three in some systemic way?
say, for Radar CS value, the baseline is F-16, RCS=1. for RWD data, the parameters are limited to detection range, cover angle, and simplified capability.. missing the RWD sensibility.. or the sensibility value is the one in Radar Data, [RWR 0.6]? in mose cases the [range] value in Radar record and RWD record is different.

btw i agree russian ac radars need fruther work.

[Snake Man]

I was shuffling through which forum area this is better suited, theater tools or theaters, I chose theater tools for now.

Certainly this is not suitable for Falcon 4 general area, this is definitely editing based stuff

[molnibalage]

great. how about sharing your tweaking and test results?

I have an excel table about this. I will send you soon. (I'm not at home currently.)

did you tweak the three in some systemic way?

I didn't touch all because it is very hard to track down the weight of every changes. You will see what I changed. I have some resources, war experiences, manuals and leaked info about capabilites. So mostly I play with values until the game experience will be closer to IRL situations.

btw i agree russian ac radars need fruther work.

No only russian IMHO...

[molnibalage]

http://www.mediafire.com/?omvfjjmzyio

It is a very old table from FF4 age, contains some WIP value.

[ccc]

http://www.mediafire.com/?omvfjjmzyio

i just checked the list.. lot's edits.. tho i don't know if the new value reflect RL thing.. it looks impressive.
btw, ac radar section, i did not notice any edits/new values about range/sweep time/azimuth/lock time?

here's a list i made long time ago.. probably around FF3 days.. it seems the radar edits could be a huge task for any DB editor.

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Radar slot list..

0  for all non-radar ground vehicles and ships.
1  APG68? for all F-16s and AJ37.?  
2  F102/F106 -  should split both
3.4   =no use
5   for all mig21s  -  should split .
6  for all mig23s - should split
7   for mig25 and mig25R   - mig25R use smaller radar/mig21
8.  mig31
9   2S6, K200D, SIDAM
10  A50, Tu26?
11   mistral V?   -MANPADS won't need radar
12   USSR ship search radar
13   AH64D, B52, B57, Kfir, A-3, Su20/22?   mixed!!
14  buccanear KA6D?
15   =no use
16  pegasus ADS
17  B-2  E-2C?
18  E-3
19  F14A
20  F18CDEF, AV8B  - split CD/EF!
21  Gepard, M1992/Zsu23-4, OSaII, 
22  F22  F35 Rafale?  should split
23  all F-4Es and -G?
24  F-5A F-5E and RF-5E > split
25  US ship serach radar
26  =no use
27  AN/MPQ46  hawk
28 Nike radar
29 F104, J6 mig17/mig19 ? 
30  J7B/J7E/J7PG, J8B > split
31  su7  su9 ?
32  33 34 35  36 =no use
37 patriot SAM radar
38 =no use
39 SA-2 fan song radar+microwave 2
40 SA3 low bow + shahine
41  long track
42  barlock B + EW radar
43  SA6 straight flush
44  SA-8 and rapier
45  SA9
46   SA10 flap lid. tombstone radar/ship grumble sAM - should split
47  SA13
48  mig29A/G, F16 aggressor, 
49   =no use
50  SU-15
51 =no use
52 SA-15 
53  ship search radar
54 55  =no use
56 kiev neustrashymyy
57 ulsan, wildcat and fast boat
58  all F-111s and F105, should split
59  tu16
60  =no use
61  KS12, KS19, S60AAA
62  all F-15CDEJ
63  =no use
64 J11 Su27  SU27UB
65  mig29M mig33  mig29S
66  67 68 69  =no use
70  mig35  su37
71  F4D, F4N, RF4C
72   F4K. F4M. JH-7?
73  F-8E
74 K-8 ? K-8 has no radar
75  mirage F1
76  F-105F/G, RA-5C. RF101c ?
77  mireage 2000 C D N -5 -9.  should split
78  =no use
79   su-24M
80  A-6E  A7E/D
81  B-1B
82  B-2A
83  EA-6B
84  F-14B
85  F-14D
86  F-15A
87  F-16A/B
88  =no use
89  F-18AB. CF-18A
90  E-8C
91  su-17M4
92  su30M/Mkk,  su32  su33, su35, better split
93 tu22M
94  tu96MS
95  tu160
96  mireageIIIC/E
97 SA17 snowdrift
98  =no use
99  F-4B/C/F
100  F-4J/S
101  =no use
102  seaharrier FA2
103 - 119  =no use
120 roland-mardar SAM
121  crotale radar
122  crotale NG radar
123-133  =no use
134  chinese and USSR carrier radar
135  billboard and high screen SA-12.  should split
136-139  =no use
140  super etandard
141  =no use
142  JA-37
143-151  =no use
152  EF2000
153-158 =no use
159 tornado ADV/IDS  should split
160 JAS39A

[molnibalage]

I agree, I don't understand why so many vehicles use the same radar data. This is also true for IR missiles concerning on IR sensor data. As I see nothing prevents creating new records. I have created new IR sensors, new radars, and new HP records. They worked perfectly.

it seems the radar edits could be a huge task for any DB editor.

Maybe. If we split and create new entries we can fill the holes.

[ccc]

I agree, I don't understand why so many vehicles use the same radar data. This is also true for IR missiles concerning on IR sensor data. As I see nothing prevents creating new records. I have created new IR sensors, new radars, and new HP records. They worked perfectly.

it seems the radar edits could be a huge task for any DB editor.

Maybe. If we split and create new entries we can fill the holes.

hehe.. the workload is beyond my scope.

anyway- check pm.. hope it help your work.

[ccc]

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[b]RP-21 Sapfir/ Spin scan radar for Mig21P/PF[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP_21_Sapfir_Spin_Scan-A
It was in theory able to detect fighter-sized targets from a range of 20 km, and lock on to them at a range of 10 km, though in practice this got reduced to 13 km and 7 km respectively. 
the radar field was limited to 20° vertically and 60° horizontally.

comment - current DB all mig21s use the same radar, slot 5. AFAIW the only wrong value is azimuth, shoulde be 0.5236 for 60deg horizontally.

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[b]Jaybird radar for mig21J/MF/bis or Mig23E[/b]
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Avionics/Jay-Bird-Radar-Russia-and-the-CIS.html
peak power is estimated at 100 kW and the radar has a 3.5 × 3.5º beamwidth. 
There is reported to be no pulse compression facility and suggested search and tracking ranges are perhaps 16 nm (30 km) and 10 nm (20 km) respectively. The acquisition range against typical targets is said to be less than 20 nm (35 km) and the system is believed to have no true look-down capability. 

now this page is more detailed..
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=25.0
Radar max. scan limits in azimuth: ±52º 
Radar max. scan limits in elevation: +43º, -38º 
Antenna scan coverage in azimuth: ±30º  
Antenna scan coverage in elevation: 8.5º to 12º 
Scan cycle:  3.5sec
Pulse width:  4 or 1 µsec
PRF: ~1KHz
Peak power of impulse transmitter: 70kW 
Power output of KNP transmitter: 270W
Time to ready:  6min 
Antenna gyro-stabilization
Pitch 30/-35º
Roll   70/-70º
Radar self check time: max. 100s
Target altitude: 40-25000m
Target speed: up to 2500km/h. 2.35M