Airbase discussion for Nevada.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-05-11 10:47:39

Nevada is a great challenge because we are obviously far from a remote part of the globe where there's no navaids and very few airports.

Here we have different type of airports:
Large civilian airports (some joints)
large military AFB, NAS, MCAS
Smaller regional airports
Cities municipal airports

There are almost 300 runways in Nevada teather at this time - I am sure it's a realistic number for the USA where even the smallest farmer has its own airstrip

Fact is we don't need them all for the use we will do with falcon, So I plan on reducing the number in the fifties range (max100) to actually what a real Viper driver there would have access/need to.

the first victims will be all the MUNI airports.
I plan on keeping of course all the AFB and the large civil airport (like Vegas, LAX, SkyHarbour, etc etc)

Ideally, only the AFB, NAS, MCAS, auxAF and ranges and JOINT civil/mil airports would need to be kept

Comments, thoughts welcome

Post by **Snake Man** » 2007-05-11 14:21:00

As usual I trust your expertise which you have proven in ODS, Europe and Afghanistan theaters.

We have to work with the real life data versus available airbase types in F4. Someday we can build new airbases and/or tweak existing ones so we have 1:1 identical bases as in real life, but today is not that day. We'll work what we got.

Keep doing what you're doing

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 2007-05-11 16:10:57

As an ex-USAF guy I would also recommend taking a good, hard look at the auxAF fields. In most / many cases, they are nothing more than emergency dirt landing strips...and not needed IMHO. Also, in many cases, the range strips may fall into this category as well.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-05-11 18:04:09

Will do Rod.

Any guidance about the dry lakes?
I know Nevada used to be full of dry lake beds where jets could land in an emergency (Or did I read too many novels

)

Also what about the extra secret airbase like dreamland... ?? Would make a fine prohibited zone with scramble fighters that would chase any player coming too close (like a different owner) - dreaming out loud here

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 2007-05-11 18:39:42

Red Dog wrote:Will do Rod.

Any guidance about the dry lakes?
I know Nevada used to be full of dry lake beds where jets could land in an emergency (Or did I read too many novels )

Also what about the extra secret airbase like dreamland... ?? Would make a fine prohibited zone with scramble fighters that would chase any player coming too close (like a different owner) - dreaming out loud here

Dry lake bed airstrips (a la Edwards AFB has many) are exactly that, i.e., test strips and/or emergency landing strips. I would not include them since they are not commonly used.

DREAMLAND aka Area 51 has a normal runway as well as dry/dirt runways. Here's a pic from Google:

Another "secret" airbase is Tonopah (often confused with Area51 but not the same). It has several real runways scattered around Nevada that could be used for the same kind of thing. That airspace is heavily controlled as far as access and even RF eminations. When I was flying on JSTARS we tested up there and were not allowed to turn our Synthetic Appeture Radar mode (or other modes for that matter) on Area 51 (for example).

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-05-11 19:11:48

I have Tonopah and Tonopah test range in the list already.
What would be the airport name of dreamland?

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 2007-05-11 19:56:22

Red Dog wrote:I have Tonopah and Tonopah test range in the list already.
What would be the airport name of dreamland?

hehe...Groom Lake, I guess. Remember it doesn't have an "official" designation.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-05-11 20:53:49

hehe, I tried that one, but came up dry

Is there an airbase in the current nevada for dreamland/groomlake.
i would hate to delete that one simply because I missed the name

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 2007-05-11 21:39:01

Red Dog wrote:hehe, I tried that one, but came up dry
Is there an airbase in the current nevada for dreamland/groomlake.
i would hate to delete that one simply because I missed the name

This might help a little:
http://home.earthlink.net/~quade/r4808n.html

as far as the current Nevada I'm afraid I don't have it installed (never have installed it / flown it). Sorry.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-05-21 08:05:10

Quick update,
The airbase slashing process is almost done.
California, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, Oregon are done
I'm working on Utah and then I will post the initial list of airbase remaining

Post by **Snake Man** » 2007-05-29 09:30:55

Hey Red Dog, any estimate when the airbase work is done?

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-05-29 12:42:35

Initial selection is done
All real life data is done save for Utah

After that I'll need to select airbase type for each chosen airbase
Once that's done, (hopefully in the week) I can send the modified CSV back to you

I'm not sure I will be able to finish this week, but i'll try

Post by **Snake Man** » 2007-05-29 12:44:48

No problem, dont sweat about exact days, just nice to know were still rolling (its been awfully quiet here the last few days, must be the summer huh).

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-06-11 12:13:17

Real life is a bitxx, couldn't work on Nevada for the past week.

I did a little the week end, here's the airbase selection:

ARIZONA
ERNEST A LOVE FIELD
GRAND CANYON NATIONAL PARK
KINGMAN
LUKE AFB
PHOENIX SKY HABOR INTL
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE NR 1
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE NR 3
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE NR 4
TUBA CITY
CALIFORNIA
AMEDEE AAF
APPLE VALLEY
BARSTOW DAGGETT
BLYTHE
BRACKETT FIELD
CAMARILLO
CASTLE AFB
CHINA LAKE NWC
CHINO
DEATH VALLEY
EDWARDS AF AUX NORTH BASE
EDWARDS AFB
EL TORO MCAS
FRESNO AIR TERMINAL
GEORGE AFB
LAKE TAHOE
LEMOORE NAS
LONG BEACH DAUGHERTY FIELD
LOS ALAMITOS AAF
LOS ANGELES INTL
MARCH AFB
MEADOWS FIELD
MOJAVE
NEEDLES
NORTON AFB
ONTARIO INTL
OXNARD
PALM SPRINGS REGIONAL
PALMDALE AF PLANT NR 42
POINT MUGU NAS
SANTA BARBARA MUNI
SANTA MARIA PUBLIC
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TRUCKEE TAHOE
VAN NUYS
VANDENBERG AFB
IDAHO
BURLEY MUNICIPAL
JACKPOT
MALAD CITY
OWYHEE
TWIN FALLS SUN VALLEY JOSLI
NEVADA
DESERT ROCK
ECHO BAY
ELY YELLAND FIELD
EUREKA
FALLON NAS
INDIAN SPRINGS AF AUX
MC CARRAN INTL
Nellis AFB
NORTH LAS VEGAS AIR TERM
PAHUTE MESA AIRSTRIP
RENO CANNON INTL (TAHOE)
RENO STEAD
SEARCHLIGHT
TONOPAH
TONOPAH TEST RANGE
WINNEMUCCA MUNI
WYOMING
BIG PINEY MARBLETON
FORT BRIDGER
EVANSTON UINTA CO BURNS FLD
UTAH
BRYCE CANYON
CANYONLANDS FIELD
CARBON CO
CEDAR CITY MUNI
HILL AFB
KASTLER COMPRESSOR STATION
LOGAN CACHE
MICHAEL AAF
OGDEN HINCKLEY
SALT LAKE CITY INTL
ST GEORGE MUNI
WENDOVER

Comments welcome
I am now assigning Runways type and ID to those airbases

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-06-27 10:30:06

Here are the proposed runway orientations

ARIZONA
ERNEST A LOVE FIELD 21_03 Airbase
GRAND CANYON NATIONAL PARK 21_03 Airbase
KINGMAN 505 WONSAN (01/19 and 15/33)
LUKE AFB 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr
PHOENIX SKY HABOR INTL 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE NR 1 Highway Strip EW
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE NR 3 Highway Strip EW
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE NR 4 Highway Strip NS
TUBA CITY 34_16 Airbase

CALIFORNIA
AMEDEE AAF 08_28 Airbase
APPLE VALLEY SEOUL AFB (01/19 - 18/36)
BARSTOW DAGGETT 545 OSAN (08/26)
BLYTHE MIRIM AFB (08/26)
BRACKETT FIELD 545 OSAN (08/26)
CAMARILLO 26_08 Airbase
CASTLE AFB 32_14 Airbase
CHINA LAKE NWC 505 WONSAN (01/19 and 15/33)
CHINO 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr
DEATH VALLEY Highway Strip EW
EDWARDS AF AUX NORTH BASE Highway Strip EW
EDWARDS AFB 505 WONSAN (01/19 and 15/33)
EL TORO MCAS SUWON AFB (16/34 L/R)
FRESNO AIR TERMINAL 11_29 Airbase
GEORGE AFB 505 WONSAN (01/19 and 15/33)
LAKE TAHOE GEN AFB (18/36)
LEMOORE NAS KIMPO (14/32 L/R)
LONG BEACH DAUGHERTY FIELD 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr
LOS ALAMITOS AAF 02_20 Airbase 2 Rvr
LOS ANGELES INTL 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr
MARCH AFB KIMPO (14/32 L/R)
MEADOWS FIELD 30_12 Airbase
MOJAVE 30_12 Airbase
NEEDLES 02_20 Airbase 2 Rvr
NORTON AFB 26_08 Airbase
ONTARIO INTL 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr
OXNARD 08_26 Airbase
PALM SPRINGS REGIONAL KIMPO (14/32 L/R)
PALMDALE AF PLANT NR 42 05_23 Airbase 2 Rvr
POINT MUGU NAS 21_03 Airbase
SANTA BARBARA MUNI SUWON AFB (16/34 L/R)
SANTA MARIA PUBLIC 12_30 Airbase
SANTA MONICA MUNI 21_03 Airbase
TRUCKEE TAHOE 505 WONSAN (01/19 and 15/33)
VAN NUYS SUNAN (18/36-16/34)
VANDENBERG AFB 12_30 Airbase

IDAHO
BURLEY MUNICIPAL 02_20 Airbase
JACKPOT 34_16 Airbase
MALAD CITY 34_16 Airbase
OWYHEE 20_02 Airbase
TWIN FALLS SUN VALLEY JOSLI 30_12 Airbase

NEVADA
DESERT ROCK Highway Strip NS
ECHO BAY Highway Strip EW
ELY YELLAND FIELD SUNAN (18/36 - 16/34)
EUREKA 34_16 Airbase
FALLON NAS KIMPO (14/32 L/R)
INDIAN SPRINGS AF AUX 545 OSAN (08/26)
MC CARRAN INTL 505 WONSAN (01/19 and 15/33)
Nellis AFB 02_20 Airbase 2 Rvr
NORTH LAS VEGAS AIR TERM KIMPO (14/32 L/R)
PAHUTE MESA AIRSTRIP Highway Strip NS
RENO CANNON INTL (TAHOE) SUWON AFB (16/34 L/R)
RENO STEAD 32_14 Airbase
SEARCHLIGHT Highway Strip NS
TONOPAH 505 WONSAN (01/19 - 15/33)
TONOPAH TEST RANGE 32_14 Airbase
WINNEMUCCA MUNI 32_14 Airbase

WYOMING
BIG PINEY MARBLETON 32_14 Airbase
FORT BRIDGER 20_02 Airbase
EVANSTON UINTA CO BURNS FLD 23_05 Airbase 2 Rvr

UTAH
BRYCE CANYON 21_03 Airbase
CANYONLANDS FIELD 21_03 Airbase
CARBON CO SUNAN (18/36 - 16/34)
CEDAR CITY MUNI 20_02 Airbase
HILL AFB 32_14 Airbase
KASTLER COMPRESSOR STATION Highway Strip EW
LOGAN CACHE 34_16 Airbase
MICHAEL AAF 12_30 Airbase
OGDEN HINCKLEY 21_03 Airbase
SALT LAKE CITY INTL SUWON AFB (16/34 L/R)
ST GEORGE MUNI 34_16 Airbase
WENDOVER 08_26 Airbase

Oregon
ROME STATE 21_03 Airbase
LAKE COUNTY 34_16 Airbase

NightFalcon · Post by **NightFalcon** » 2007-06-28 06:30:36

One of my next projects is to start pushing (and begging and kicking and screaming) to have my airbases added into the RV database, at one point I actually had a working runway and taxiway for everyone of the different runway headings, mind you not all at the same time. I had to replace a model, work on all the taxiway data, save, replace and start again.

Mind you these are quite old. When FF had a working Airbase group. It got shelved for other projects.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-06-28 10:54:29

I wonder what would happen if we could place one airbase very close to another so they look like the same airbases.
Lots of the civils airports have the Runway intersecting at the stating and/or end points. That's something we could do in F4 to reciprocate the larger airbase models we see in the US for instance

I guess the problem will be the intersecting taxiways ....
Might become tricky for the WWII style airbase (such as China lake) with the triangular shape

Here's an image from my charts to illustrate the idea:

NightFalcon · Post by **NightFalcon** » 2007-06-28 15:27:43

You could make an airbase like this with a new model, taxipoints, and object placement. But if you were to try and overlap two seperate runways you would get texture Z-fighting where the two models touch. Other than that I cant think of anything. ATC may not be so fluid. Try it and post what happens.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 2007-06-28 21:40:09

I would love to have some new airbase models in the database for Falcon. That would be awesome!

marvin157th · Post by **marvin157th** » 2007-06-29 02:12:24

RedDog,

That is a very interesting idea.

Jody

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-06-29 08:18:50

I think it might work,

As NightFalcon suggested, we might have overlapping texture problems but with careful placement, we could avoid most of those. Even if the runway taxiways don't touch each other, we might be able to pull that one without changing the taxipoints nor object placement , that means we wouldn't have to play around with the airbase models .

The latter is something I'd like to avoid for the moment (as much as I want to have realistic and unique airbase model in F4, I think it's still utopic for the time being, especially with all the different versions being used around for the moment.

If we can place such airbases very close to one another we might be able to pull the tricks.

The Tacan shouldn't be a problem as I can easily assign one unique tacan for these two airbases.

The names should be the same, Like Indian Springs 1 and Indian Spring 2

For OF, ATC (tower) channels will have to be different otherwise the code won't be able to give you the closest one, but I can live with it since on major airbase like this one, most of the time, there are different freqs for different runways.

I can investigate what are the possibilities we have with current airbase models - but I will need help to actually place those in the theater

That would indeed be something interesting for the next Nevada beta, wouldn't it?

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2007-06-29 10:37:12

throw in my2c..

1. we still have difficulties adding brand new airbase models and make them fully functional as default ones.

2. Red Dog's idea sounds doable - and won't cause much trouble in databae editing. jut place some aribases adequately, you may reproduce a triangle-layout airbase in nevada thteater!!

a much easier job- divide such triangle layout base into -1, -2, -3, three parts!

lamurt · Post by **lamurt** » 2007-06-29 18:34:56

wonder if the runway threshold could be omitted from a model? even if doesn't look that much real, at least the z fighting may be eliminated this way?!?

Post by **Snake Man** » 2007-06-29 21:35:14

I like to remind that this is Nevada airbase discussion topic, it seems to me that were drifting into generic airbase model editing discussion here and that should be left on the existing Creating / Editing Airbases topic. Thank you.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-07-01 08:53:54

Sorry Snake.
I didn't intend to make anything like this OUTSIDE NEVADA for the moment, so I'd prefer this discussion to remain here if you don't see any inconvenient. I have no time to track all discussion and I need help here.

I'm not talking about generic airbases for F4, I am talking about making the airbase in NEVADA closer to the reality with the means we have available.

The CSV and initial station.dat files are ready for Nevada. I will need a new beta with those included to start testing placing airports models close to another in Nevada, so it won't happen soon, but it's an idea I'd like to work on for future version of NEVADA

marvin157th · Post by **marvin157th** » 2007-07-02 01:23:09

Snake Man wrote:I like to remind that this is Nevada airbase discussion topic, it seems to me that were drifting into generic airbase model editing discussion here and that should be left on the existing Creating / Editing Airbases topic. Thank you.

Holy cow! Take it easy!

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2007-07-27 08:52:53

I just sent the CSV file with modified airbase for the next Nevada theater as well as the first test of the corresponding stations.dat file

Post by **Snake Man** » 2007-08-05 19:09:24

Received the files fine, thank you.

Red Dog · Post by **Red Dog** » 2008-02-26 14:42:02

Hi guys,

I'm about to resume work with Nevada by making a stations.dat file for OF with UHF, VHF & ILS frequencies.

Doing so, I want to investigate further the possibility to create new airbases by combining two existing models, like illustrated above.

To be able to do that, I may need a coder able to add an airbase on specific coordinates on request until we got it working or we quit because it's not possible.

Any one wants to step forward?
We really need more than 4 runways airbases in Nevada

Thanks