Terrain types of Vietnam

[Snake Man]

What kind of terrain types are we looking for in the Vietnam area?

Sometime in the future we get the "paintbox bitmap" util where we can draw the different terrain type areas and those get tiled automatically by the CATE. Here is quick example what I used so far, these are just top of my head and done in matter of seconds with CATE util.

1ft -> 660ft swamp/jungle
661ft -> 1640ft dry farmland
1641ft -> 3280ft wet farmland
3281ft -> 6560ft forest
6561ft -> 11480ft mountain rock
11481ft -> 99999ft snowcap

Actually by looking that now, it would be good idea to change the dry and wet farmland, so we start from ocean level swamp type jungle, progress to wet farmland (bit more human), then dry farmland, forest and mountains to top of all that.

I'll be looking for those Com GP made rice paddy tiles soon also. Eventually we could hope to have totally new tileset for Vietnam.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

Well. gotta find some terrain type info soon

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Ender Wiggin]

same as ODS? ill see what i can do.

[Snake Man]

Any landuse maps for Vietnam?

[Sherlock]

Any landuse maps for Vietnam?

Here's one for old South Vietnam: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_e ... d_1972.jpg

Can you use anything in this report? There is one graphic of all of Vietnam with a land use key (or Legend); but it isn't the usual CIA type drawing graphic:

http://gisws.media.osaka-cu.ac.jp/gisid ... .php?id=90

[Snake Man]

The first one is good for south for sure and the another gives us good overview but cant be really used like 1:1 becuase of its lack of detail. But then again, I think all those other landuse maps were made by looking and image and then painting freehand I think (ODS + Europe). So yeah good stuff, thanks.

[ccc]

nothing particular.. just a pic of vietnam elevation map.

http://www.askasia.org/images/teachers/media/106.gif

[ccc]

I spent few nights checking SAT image in GE.

Apart from hills, the terrain type seems to be mixed swamp/rice paddies/village over the whole Vnam flat land. it's complex.. and very difficult to "upgrade the terrain looking with minimal tile tweak".

the most used tiles for flat land/rice paddies area is tile# 272 and 277. tile names are HFARME1 and HFARME6.
i picked some rice farm tiles from deafult korea tile set and renamed them for tile#272-277. Test result is no good..too repetitive, rice paddies size is too big, lack of the greenish feeling..etc.

In latest Vnam package, i also found a set of unused farm-rice paddies tiles( created by SM?), in [Others] tile type.
i renamed them again for Tile#272-277..well the test result is the same.. repetitive and oversized rice paddies graphix.

To upgrade Vnam terrain looking with minimal tile tweak, we need few basic, generic farm/rice peddies tiles...just like what i did in Nevada/Afghanstan test, i modified SM's sand tile and Pheionix711's moutain tiles for them.

[Polak]

it's complex.. and very difficult to "upgrade the terrain looking with minimal tile tweak".

Funny that we both were looking last week in the same place. ....Vietnam theater that is.
In fact I have made all prep work by copying all Vietnam theater tiles into one place, converting them to bmps for better viewing and grouping them into respective working (same name and palette) folders for possible remake. If you want I post that working set for public use by all of us and that way perhaps we could make gradual contribution to it over some time.
My primary goal is to continue ODS however, I find that some of the tiles I make for ODS could be used in other "greener" theater that the desert so my most logic choice is to open Vietnam and store there what I have no use for the ODS.

And I totaly agree with you that the wise choice of Farming tiles is the key for such a theter like SEA regions (southeast asia) as that one makes the background and transition to most other tiles there. Moreover chosing many good looking possible farm/field variations is the must in theater like that as fields are the most of what you see there.

Rice paddy is also pretty tricky tile as you would like to have it close to fields (which in fact rice paddy after all is) but at the same time give some SEA taste by giving it fresh green or nice pattern. Hainan region in Googgle is nice are to find some good material (just pitty that there are only few true photos there). I will post something later on, but I'll be looking forward for some discussion and exchange of the SEA "tile making tribulations" even before.

I have noticed total lack of airbase tiles in PMC Vietnam theater

[toonces]

Glad to see you guys down here at the bottom of the forum.

Interestingly, I have been having an ongoing conversation with the FF5 devs about Vietnam just today.

Please, please, please- anything you can contribute to improve the tiling of this theater is welcome and will be used.

I ask one thing: Please do not change the x,y locations of objectives in your tweaking. I would very strongly prefer not to have to rebuild the OOB that I have already built for the Easter Offensive campaign. If you absolutely have to in order to re-do the terrain, I can live with it; but, if you can re-do the terrain without changing all of the x,y locations that would really make my life easier.

I plan to start looking at this theater again very seriously after FF5.3 is released and the DB is locked down into its final version. All I can promise is that if you build it, I will use it.

OT: I have a huge amount of reference info for ODS, but the project is just too big to take on by myself. Just too big. I have some hypotheticals in mind, but I'd prefer to work on Vietnam first.

[ccc]

Funny that we both were looking last week in the same place. ....Vietnam theater that is.
I have noticed total lack of airbase tiles in PMC Vietnam theater

well..your new tiles look very promising.. if possible, i'd like to have HFARME1-E6 for a quick test.

btw yes, current tile set is lack of many tile types..BUT..even we have new types of tiles, i am afraid they can only be applied by hands.

[toonces]

I know SM hates links to other sites, but I hope you'll forgive me this transgression SM, because I think it's worthwhile for now.

This video is a compilation (to music) of a bunch of "Dogfights" footage from the History Channel in Vietnam.

The reason for posting is that I think it is the "goal" to which we should be working.

@ Polak specifically, are you familiar with Battle of Britain 2: Wings of Victory? The latest iteration of that has this...code...edit that allows for dynamic trees. This rapidly gets out of my knowledge area, but I think it would take Falcon very far...beyond terrain edits.

Anyway, view the video for ideas only...see how close and far we are to the Hollywood standard. [edit]: especially about 1:05 to about 1:35. Check the far terrain. We are 90% there with the jets, missile contrails, explosions, afterburners, etc. in FF5. I mean, we're there. It's the terrain, with no disrespect at all intended- I can't tile for crap. But, if we can just work on that part, I can work the campaigns, and the FF5 team can work the sim...[/edit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIaeLL_lp6E

[Snake Man]

I know SM hates links to other sites, but I hope you'll forgive me this transgression SM

Yes I absolutely hate the fact that someone posts only link to some research discussion (most of the times just the link, no explanation, no nothing). Then years later when we view that link, its dead. The text should have been copy pasted or better yet, summarized for the post and then just referenced that "source is [here]".

However you had youtube link, heheh its bit different as its video. That's totally different. My "I hate links you lazy bum" only includes those normal web pages, ie text of some reference data.

[Polak]

are you familiar with Battle of Britain 2: Wings of Victory? The latest iteration of that has this...code...edit that allows for dynamic trees. This rapidly gets out of my knowledge area, but I think it would take Falcon very far...beyond terrain edits.

Sorry, but not familiar, however from the vid I see what you mean by Holywood standards. Yet at the same token I am familiar with such a terrain engines like MSFS and SF:P1 and some others. Both really well handle the addition of 3D items to the terrain tiles. It is important to have that element to make the terrain REALLY believable (i.e. IMHO trees in Il-2 are not my cup of tea).

And having said all that above I still think that Falcon4 is the only one deeply conveying "you are there" feel as far as huge battle (or I should say war) going around you while in flight. Glad to hear that FF5 is making the progress.

[ccc]

@Polak,

bear with me, take tile graphic from your post for a quick test.

my first impression..
- it looks good. at hight alt, repetitiveness noted. no big issue.
- since the basic H tile is 512, the M-tile better be 128 or even better with 256 size.. not sure about the FPS hit. i first test with M-tile 64 size, the transition just too sharp.
- the graphic on tile, some parts show hightlights/brighter spots.. when scaled down to M/L tile, it becomes dazzaling brighter spots at far distance. dunno if M/L tile need further tweak to reduced "bright dots on terrain at far distanc" effect.
- since i use them for mosly-seen tiles, HFARME1/E6, i feel "rice paddies" part is a bit too much. maybe more clusters of trees/villages in the rest tiles?
- anyway, at low alt, looks nice.

PS- more test shows.. the rice paddies tile has very complex graphic pattern.. a bit dazzaling at low alt. we need some tiles with ponds, or less complex wasteland to relieve the overwhelming rice paddies image.. some areas to look at, to relieve the visual tension.

[toonces]

@ Polak, sometimes I feel like my message gets lost when I say too much Separating out all the BoB2 stuff, is the video of any use for tile ideas in the Falcon Vietnam terrain?

Again, I'm very excited to see you guys down here at the bottom of the forums. I spent two hours talking with Hustler yesterday, and we are very fired up to take Vietnam to a true campaign like Taiwan and ITO2. I'm talking fully working, semi-historic OOB, the whole smack. Some improved terrain will greatly improve the immersiveness of the theater and, frankly, Vietnam and ITO2 are the two best "historical/real" theaters of operations to model in the Falcon engine.

A real Vietnam flight simulator is way overdue imo. Wings over Vietnam doesn't count in my opinion.

I'm very confident we can model a campaign like Year of the Rat in FF5. So, if you guys are willing to invest your time in improving the terrain, I can assure you that the effort will be worth it in the future.

As soon as I finish up Panama, Vietnam is going to be my focus.

[Polak]

PS- more test shows.. the rice paddies tile has very complex graphic pattern.. a bit dazzaling at low alt. we need some tiles with ponds, or less complex wasteland to relieve the overwhelming rice paddies image.. some areas to look at, to relieve the visual tension.

Please post test shot. It is no problem to change anything. To make those few tiles took not much time at all. This is great if we could continue this cooperation this way. For me changing looks of the tiles is not big deal but testing all that little more of a hassle.Stand by tonight for some more examples of Vietnam tiles with jungle and rivers. Perhaps they might turn out again too dazzling but this is exactly what tests are for.

Sometimes what looks in Photoshop dull looks great in F4 world and vice versa. This is what is sometimes surprising and challenging here in painting of tiles .

[ccc]

here you are.. honestly you've to fly in sim to get the dazzling look.



say, the tiles may need fine-tuning like... more saturated colors.. and slightly lower contrast.. just my very 2c.

BTW Microprose's Tank platoon II(?) and Gunship III have color-rich/saturated? terrain..nice looking..some oil-paint feeling.

[Polak]

Thanks for VERY prompt sample. yes... I think flying in the sim and looking at the shots 2 different things.
On the shot they do not look too bad.
They also need to be weighed against other tiles. Lowering saturation or contrast may produce some different results.
Are you testing F4AF or some other version of Falcon4? Thanks anyway and we hopefully would continue now at faster paste.
As fall and winter are fast approaching and I will hopefully have more time and fancy to paint.

[Polak]

In the series of initial trial tile looks for Vietnam I made those tiles for the jungle and the river there. They might also be looking too "dazzling" as they are little on the bright side. However, in my opinion the final judgement should be rather made when all major pieces (tiles) of the terrain are in place. It might be too much of the detail and hence repetition may crop in. On the other hand thy may be complementing other tiles and the whole effect might be unique and with exotic feel. It is hard to say therefore perhaps more tests are needed when sets of tiles are fully finished.

This particulary tiles are somehow controversial because current computer power allows for the 3D trees to be present. This is exactly visible in the video example sent by toonces. In my tiles the trees are drawn and , eventhough the tiles may look pretty promissing at first, they may look little fake from up close.

So for now only another sample shot. I will try to test it asap and advise.

[Polak]

I have uploaded for the public use Vietnam repaint template.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=60ea ... b9a8902bda

It is 5.7 MB file contaning all PMC Vietnam terrain tiles in respective folders named as per the tile group. Template may help during the discussion as we can at the glance check what tiles we are talking about.



Again I see no airbase tiles. Were they made, or just Korea's AB tiles were used?

[Snake Man]

Vietnam tiles are very poor, made by me long time ago without any clue of any image editing. You guys can arrange 512 res source images for me and I can then upgrade the tiles.

Most likely I will take korean texture.bin and overwrite the korean tile graphics with new ones. Don't get too attached to the current tile-set.

Good looking tiles you guys are doing

[Polak]

Most likely I will take korean texture.bin and overwrite the korean tile graphics with new ones. Don't get too attached to the current tile-set.

Would that mean that there will be as many textures in PMC Vietnam as in original F4 Korea (1650)? I have never really analysed this original F4 texture set. Has this been done somwhere? How many types of terrain are there in Korea?

Placing all textures in respective folders according to names gives better overal idea what the terrain is made of. I did that for ODS and now above for PMC Vietnam. But your post SM tells me that it was futile. Not big deal I guess, but is my understanding correct?

[ccc]

few suggestions..

- River width, according to GE SAT image, width of larger river is around 100-300m.
- H/M/L tile size, if H tile use 512, the M/L better be 128/32. in default Korea H/M/L tiles, their size are 256/64/32. the transition of H/M tile should be controlled at 512/128, or 4:1 resolution, for better FPS and smoother tranistion. M/L tile resoution ratio does not matter, as the transition happens at far distance.
- For dazzling looking due to brighter parts on tiles, maybe tune-down the contrast or just tune-down bright color parts in M and L tiles.. it should make M/L tile area not that dazzling.. be more monomorphous.

Most likely I will take korean texture.bin and overwrite the korean tile graphics with new ones. Don't get too attached to the current tile-set.

well.. in this case it becomes a new (modding) game..i supposed it was a simple facelift with minmal work.
ALL thanks go to Polak

[Snake Man]

This is getting offtopic, everyone should read the first post again and stick with the terrain types discussion.

Making tiles for Vietnam posts should be put into another topic(s).

[Polak]

Most likely I will take korean texture.bin and overwrite the korean tile graphics with new ones. Don't get too attached to the current tile-set.

SM,
How many types of Vietnam terrain are you suggesting?
Dont get attached to current set What that means? Which set should then be
Is that all on or off topic

[Snake Man]

If korean texture.bin offers enough terrain types to choose from, we'll use that. That's what it means.

[Blackbird]

Wow! The talent people together rebuild the VN theater. That is so wonderful . We will have the best theater soon

[Polak]

Just as I did that to PMC Vietnam theater I have nearly finished dissecting original Korea textures. There are many more folders there and appears also many more terrain types. By looking at textures so seggregated to pertaining folders I can see what kind of terrain was used and all transitions and permutations of tiles (roads /rivers) are clearly showing up.
I was wondering though if that was ever done before by someone or somewhere else than PMC. Hate to double efforts and repeat the work.

If that was not done ever before, I imagine that after the tiles are sorted out by the names - the clearer architecture of the hierarchy of the terrain transition will show up. Based on this template we could theoretically placed repaints of each tile (it is a LOT of work , no question) characteristic to each terrain.

So my other question would be .... if we substitute korea tiles with some other theater characteristic tiles would we be able to use it ? There is a lot tiles there 1650, however there are many generic varieties there and many interesting transitions. Knowing (very little , admit) about ODS and Vietnam textures I see that there are many transitionsand varieties (mainly roads /rivers etc. in Korea) which are not present in PMC theaters.

I guess and I hope that I have explained what I am in process of doing - could be this of any practical use, (before I finish to find out that it was futile) ? Appreciate some comments.

[ccc]

throw in my 0.0002c here,

my initial tile tweak aims at upgrading [very few generic tiles] for maximal visual reward, with the assumption of no re-tiling or expansion of tile types.

Current vnam terrain is tiled with fewer tiles, and needs more random tiling effect over flat land. As Polak about to upgrade tiles in a much larger scale..i am not sure if a CATE auto-tiling is planned - only re-tiling can fully utilize your new tile work.

I was wondering though if that was ever done before by someone or somewhere else than PMC. Hate to double efforts and repeat the work.
If that was not done ever before, I imagine that after the tiles are sorted out by the names - the clearer architecture of the hierarchy of the terrain transition will show up.

do you use TerrainView tool to check tiles? i think the tile naming system is known or understandable to senior(or retired?) tile makers for years.

if we substitute korea tiles with some other theater characteristic tiles would we be able to use it ?

my humble understanding is, yes. if a desert terrain is tiled with korea HFARMXX tiles, then replace the green farm graphic with desert sand graphic on HFARMXX tiles, you got the desert terrain looking - just keep the HFARMXX filenames. or.. you want to use NEW tile filenames?

say, i think your Vnam tiles could be used on other theaters like central america/panama and parts of Taiwan/Kurile.. there're rice paddies or SEA features too.

[Snake Man]

Please guys open a new topic "Making tiles for Vietnam" and continue tile making discussion there. This topic is for deciding what sort of terrain types this theater has. I won't remind about this again.

[Polak]

Here are some informational links to landuse maps of the South East Asia
(Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos/Thailand). Here I have started with regional map which is perhaps
easiest to rescale and overlay over the CATE bitmap. Same information (maps) of landuse
categories are available for each of the country.

Based on this information it is quite hard to suggest what OTHER nature should /could be
introduced to the PMV Vietnam terrain to make it looking like South Asia. Looking at
regional map I would vote perhaps for two or three:
rice paddy fields , which we have recently discussed (not really added as they are "wetfarmland")
inland water and wetland (inland water tiles could be used also for large rivers like Mekong)
and
barren (however again for that existing "rock" tiles could be used)

perhaps desired more of the coastal type tiles could be introduced and some of them made to mangroves and more sand beaches


dryfarmland agriculture - existing dryfarmland or "fields"
bamboo, bush, jungle - existing "forest"
wetfarmland agriculture in plantation/production - "rice paddies" being added
urban/industrial - existing "city"
inland water - propose to be added
wetland -propose to be added
barren - existing "rock"
proposed more coastal types

[Snake Man]

That land use map is nice, thanks.

Seems like Lao's is one big forest