Taiwan Theater v0.4 MODs for FF/RV by derStef

[derStef]

link broken. blue isn't moving to Wan-li anymore.
but all the rest blue seems to stay nearly still.

[Parislord]

I'm working on a late 80's/early 90's version where the F-104D and F-16A are the prime movers for ROCAF. My big prob is finding a workable starfighter stand-in. So far, I'm leaning toward the Mirage IIIE as it has the correct number of HP (5) and basically flies only in a straight line since it bleeds in the turn like a bypass paitent. It's also a real bugger to get on/off the ground. To fight with this FM, you have to drive to a point above the target and make a dving-pass, then drive back to your perch. The maneuvering battle is definately out, here.

Dstef, love the Save2.cam. You really should build an installer and incl your skins, though. Even if they're not perfect, they're very nice in the screenie and do aid in immersion.

I really wish we could get CCC's (I think it was) F-86 and 104 models and build a Formosa Straights campaign based on the original incident.

[derStef]

I'm working on a late 80's/early 90's version where the F-104D and F-16A are the prime movers for ROCAF.

Nice, do you have already a dynamic groundwar? (on which save.cam is it based?)
That's what i & ccc are working on the last time.....

Dstef, love the Save2.cam. You really should build an installer and incl your skins, though. Even if they're not perfect, they're very nice in the screenie and do aid in immersion.

Thanks, but i never made an installer, ic that very complicated?
any problems, with it? bugs,.....?

I really wish we could get CCC's (I think it was) F-86 and 104 models and build a Formosa Straights campaign based on the original incident.

Me, too but we need first a dynamic groundwar, also nice would be an Vnam era camp or a late 70'/ early 80' camp.... (maby in future.)

so, we have alot to do, gentlemen..... cheers



@CCC: could it be that the non moving groiund units have something to do with the .tri file? can you add "major offensive to red" and set defense priorities to bluE? just an idea.......

[ccc]

link broken. blue isn't moving to Wan-li anymore.
but all the rest blue seems to stay nearly still.

ya, i noticed the result too. acutally i found those units want moving south to Tou-chen.. but no road! there's obj link between Wan-li and Tou Chen.. but no brown road line on feature map - i think the missing road make CATE fail to place road tiles there, so units can't find the road to move. SM please correct me if im wrong.

even so, i still can not figure out why so many machanized blue unit refuse to fight against red infantry units!!

I really wish we could get CCC's (I think it was) F-86 and 104 models and build a Formosa Straights campaign based on the original incident.

please focus on working campaign first! Ranger and Biker have good experience in this part of work.. no hurry. As Derstef said, a truely working campaing should come first.. the rest can be done later.

BTW - when F-CK-1 entered service in 90, we retired- or almost retired F104. when F16A etnered service, there's already no F104 at flightline!

@CCC: could it be that the non moving groiund units have something to do with the .tri file? can you add "major offensive to red" and set defense priorities to bluE? just an idea.......

possible. im trying to tweak and test tri first.

BTW- my recent test - i add few more mechanized red units at west coast, since these units move faster than infantry, i use them to check the obj linking.

result -
-units can run from Bali to Taipei.
-units can run along NW coast, to capture Taoyan, CKS intl airport, and try to capture Taoyan AFB.
- units can run along inner road along NW area, catpure highway strip, and a Hu ko.
- unit can move close to Hsin chu AFB.
- no moving at NE area, the I-lan area. it think it's due to missing road on terrain.
- red units have no problem capture CCK and taichung city.
- red units have no problem catpure Kaohusung area/city/port/airport.

- the most supringly part is NW corner, from San-chi to Taipei. mechanized units can move along the road -note - obj linking is a straight line, the feature map shows a S shape tortuous road- unit moving the map road! it just takes long to start the moving, then infantry unit follow. so .. the road is open.

- i do some obj linkg on peng hu island and Chimen - guess what, if i did not place some blue units on chinmen island, the obj will be owned by red in short time!

[derStef]

@CCC: could it be that the non moving groiund units have something to do with the .tri file? can you add "major offensive to red" and set defense priorities to bluE? just an idea.......

possible. im trying to tweak and test tri first.

result -
-units can run from Bali to Taipei.
-units can run along NW coast, to capture Taoyan, CKS intl airport, and try to capture Taoyan AFB.
- units can run along inner road along NW area, catpure highway strip, and a Hu ko.
- unit can move close to Hsin chu AFB.
- no moving at NE area, the I-lan area. it think it's due to missing road on terrain.
- red units have no problem capture CCK and taichung city.
- red units have no problem catpure Kaohusung area/city/port/airport.

- the most supringly part is NW corner, from San-chi to Taipei. mechanized units can move along the road -note - obj linking is a straight line, the feature map shows a S shape tortuous road- unit moving the map road! it just takes long to start the moving, then infantry unit follow. so .. the road is open.

- i do some obj linkg on peng hu island and Chimen - guess what, if i did not place some blue units on chinmen island, the obj will be owned by red in short time!

thanks for the report, ccc!
thats all so strange, what do you think, can we fix that all via tacedit or do we need someone with CATE, terrain,... experience? i also think that somethings are terain specific.

other question:


so what can we do?
cheers
Stef

[ccc]

About questions in your TAcedit pic..

- fuel, supply, priority slots - i don't know, maybe you can give it more fuel and supply values, so troops could have fuel/supply from it?

-flags menu, it means an obj could have some feature like radar, beach(for amphibious landing?) or something like that. imho each feature could have some function or script behind it - got to test to know.

- link editor, yes i vaguely remember the value account for movement cost. the higher value, the more cost of energy and time to pass it.

you can compare the values in 1716( a bridge?), Tou-cheng, and NPP4. use foot(infantry) for example, Tou-cheng town and NPP4 value is ok.. but 1716 bridges is TOO HIGH!! passing a 100% working bridges won't cost that much time and energy. it could be another "choking point" bug. i'll check some bridges in my tweak.

BTW- my test with tweaked Tri file..

- i copy some event code from default korea save0.tri.. mainly the "seoul attacked by DPRK", " p'yongyang captured by ROK".. etc.

i replaced camp_id of korea cities/obj with Taiwan obj.. hmm.. it's hard to understand the code and usage, and the meaning of each number..

the result -
Kaohsung area, the same, i arranged some blue units to capture red obj, no unit follow my order.

Taichung area, the same. a group of blue mechanized units start runing away toward deep NE hills..damn. i deleted the obj link to hill, guess what, they moved toward SE hill and reserved at Puli, another hill town! only two units left to defend Taichung, the result is CCK AFB and Taichung easily captured by red.

Taipei area, i also deleted the obj link from Shunshan airbase to NE coast/wanli, and the link to Tou-cheng in case they want fleeing to east coast. well, this makes blue unit nowhere to go and forced to face red invasion.. i found hot fighting between red and blue units, trying to capture-recapture several obj like Taiepie SAM site, Taipei radar station, and Taipei industry obj. you just find obj color changing between red and blue - then stayed red as many units nailed by ground or air power.

[derStef]

thanks for the description, ccc!


does "flat" or "fixed" maybe mean that object is "leveled (for Airbases)?
you know the button in menu ,objects, " Auto flag Objectives"...
it sets flags automaticaly...




Bad, that it makes no big difference with your tweaked .tri file!

BTW. i got a blue mission from CCK AB as it was already captured by red! strange...

what do you suggest???
cheers
Stef

[ccc]

more test result..

1. tri file is very important. be sure to read PMC tri page first - tho i still can't understand it. also check default korea saveX.tri.
my tweak is cut-n-paste parts of korea tri, then change the camp_id accordingly.

btw,
@SET_event 9/10 in the begining of tri file works- i helps the ground units to set up its posture from the start.

2. obj movement cost value is important too. many bridges have extrordinarily high values, make units hesitate to pick some route due to high cost of time/energy consumption.

3. i edit obj movement cost and add more obj linking, also re-link the roads i broke intentionally in previous test. the result is, ground units moving more fluently. with the tri edit, the units around taipei and kaohsuing tends to secure towns, while those in taichung still running away toward south, not go into inland moutains.

4. some cool findings in recent tests - i noted tough fight between red and blue units in major city area- red captured town, blue re-take them, then red fight back, the cycle slowly settled down as both side loosing manpower and equippment, due to ground fighting or air strike.

normally red can win the war in one day, so i stretch it by asking red to capture one more obj- taipei army HQ, to end the war. it seems this obj is hard to capture and red almost run out of energetic units.. so the war continues till day 2 2230 - a big surprise comes, blue turns to major offensive! i found blue re-capture taichung and kaohsung, then TWO armor units moving fast towrad taipei, yes AMOUR units seem to be the fast unit, and the main power of counter strike. the two armour units re-take all taipie obj and, one unit moving north to capture San-chih, a NW corner costal town used as red beachhead!

the result doesn't mean i can get such major offensive evreytime- in following new tests, blue can not launch such attack due to excessive ground loss - partially due to massive red air strike.

well- all i can say is, it's dynamic.

[ccc]

more test results..

in most cases Blue ground units are too weak to launch major offensive on Day2.. in one test [news reports] shows [Allied forces starts major offensive from 1500], then same news on 1505, 1515, 1525.. till 1700. yes campaign engine try to call up blue offensive - but remaining units are broken or exhausted, even worse, only one broken armour unit left! no unit available to excute the order.

the result implies i should place few more units as "reserve", or try "reinforcement edit" again.. when the time comes, blue side can fight back.

BTW.. the TRI file is very sensitive..i changed number 2(team- taiwan) to 1(team US), and it causes CTD once i hit [start campaign]!

[Closter]

Please, keep going!

Very few are able to talk about these issues, I am anxiously reading all your trials, so please experiment and share your findings through the forum and possibly the wiki, even as a less than structured knowledge... You are opening paths here...

Thank you!

[derStef]

Please, keep going!

Very few are able to talk about these issues, I am anxiously reading all your trials, so please experiment and share your findings through the forum and possibly the wiki, even as a less than structured knowledge... You are opening paths here...

Thank you!

Thx, Closter.
just download it on the link above, if you like & support us!
i'd need people for testing, editing & skinning here!

then, if you got in, i'll keep you updated with my latest mods, for testing and tweaking.... Cheers

[derStef]

more test results..

in most cases Blue ground units are too weak to launch major offensive on Day2.. in one test [news reports] shows [Allied forces starts major offensive from 1500], then same news on 1505, 1515, 1525.. till 1700. yes campaign engine try to call up blue offensive - but remaining units are broken or exhausted, even worse, only one broken armour unit left! no unit available to excute the order.

the result implies i should place few more units as "reserve", or try "reinforcement edit" again.. when the time comes, blue side can fight back.

BTW.. the TRI file is very sensitive..i changed number 2(team- taiwan) to 1(team US), and it causes CTD once i hit [start campaign]!

Ok, good news! great work!
so, you think we could get them more moving via .tri?
or do you think, it's now dynamic enyough with your latest .tri?:lol:
BTW, i have already looked on .tri wiki and compared .tris but very had to understand for me.


THanks ccc! i'm BIG FAN OF YOU! cheers

[ccc]

with more tests, i've got more idea about the campaign tweaking... here comes more conclusons..

1. organized Brigade-Battalion tens to work as a group and respond collectively to major offensive order. If you want such massive,
aggressive, intentional movement, you got to count on such orgainzed units.

2. in contrast, battalion can be added as "independent unit", not belong to a Brigade. in this case, if a built-in order given, it may-or may not follow it. the single unit may act agressively or passively( defend/reserve). such setting has its pros and cons..
for example, as situation is good- a pre-ordered armor unit can rapidly move to capture port Ba-li. as situation is bad-the unit may stay longer
at its reserve postion to slow down the move of red. Organized brigade-battalion tends to run away for reserve than independent unit.

Adding independent battalion units could be a trick or cheat in campaign-making... i placed few armor battalions to give order to capture
designated obj, then edit blue-win conditon, the result is i can easily achieve a win ending before the end of day 2, in blue defensive posture.
Of course- it's not what i want, i prefer the strike-back launched by a major offensive order, excuted by groups of organized units.
As the essense of taiwan theater/geographic feature, a major attack axis like korea is hard to established..so mutiple-point assult sounds more
doable.

3. To test the progression of campaign, placing armor or mechanized untis is best choice- they move much faster than bare foot units. when
their moving route is confirmed, you may increase or reduce the unit quantities, to adjust the power of offensive/defensive.

4. [obj-linking] and [obj movement cost values] must be checked closely. After running tens more rounds of test, i found the two subjects need lots attnetion.

first, Taiwan terrain is not 100% checked - wrong tiles, broken road, missing bridges.. all stop ground unit movement and force them to choose odd longer routes. i ran several rounds of test and memorized the movement routes, then back to TacEdit...

obj-linking - some must be linked, other must be deleted, to make the ground battle moving along my designated route or area. i've not tried adding new obj yet.

obj movement cost values - thanx derstef for reminding this key parameter. in taiwan theater, many bridges have extraordinarily high value.. make ground units take longer time and energy to occupy or pass them. It also happen to obj like town, port, and airbases. A high-move cost obj(even or bridge or town) make ground units detour, or hesitate to capture it. I lowerd port Bali and Taichung value, make the life easier. OTOH, adjusting the value skillfully can reasonably extend the war time, slow the pace of campaign, or change movement axis intentionally.

Be sure to check ALL the values in desired areas.. sometimes you miss one and all units refuse to move further.

5. Armor and mechanized units are the most valuable units - adding few more could easily change the balance of power! As said before, they are the main power of major offensive, so place/reserve/protect them with care - in 3d flying, they are also the first priority to support and protect from above.

6. Now comes to tri file edit... i dropped my previous tri, and pick a default korea save1.tri as template. in taiwan theater, blue side is always
on defensive, so korea "iron fortress" save1.tri fits this case. Combined my aforementioned tweaks, my test campaign shows..

-taipei area is tightly secured..imo blue seems too strong, and blue units less ran away toward NE coast for reserve.

- NW coast, ok, red catpure airbase and town, blue can take back some.
-Taichung area, blue less ran away, if ran for reseve, they tend to go for highway strip206? anyway, blue tends to be more responsible for area defense, their main move route will meet red invasion head-on-head, the result is many red unit neutralized, and finally blue can capture taichung port, or give manual order to capture it. i also note blue reserve units went back to defend taichung city.

- Kaohsung area is interesting. tho i didn't add armor units, the blue defense seems stronger thru intentional maneuvoring. kaohsung city
first captured by red, then re-take and hold by blue.. i like it. meanwhile, my tweak make some red units move to capture another city Ping-ton..sometimes it can capture, or intercepted and kicked back by blue. cool, it's first time i notice red launching attack to two cities at the
same time..and the armor unit rushing to defend is applusible.

7. my tri file tweak is rough..

- some trigger events are just used for playing movies, so i deleted them for simplicity. i also deleted unused russian/japan join the war events.

- what i keep are.. event initiaton, win/lose/draw condition, seoul being attacked, seoul capture/recapture, blue/red on offensive. no p'yongyang being attacked/captured-regained events, as the Taipie-to-a red owned obj distance is too short/lack of strategic depth, i decided to drop this trigger.

- in seoul being attack( change seoul to Taipei) event, the code calls blue to wake up for fight, gather the units to defend an obj. i choose one or two obj( like Lin-ko) near Taipei city along the red invasoin route- once captured, PAK and priority changed accordingly.

- in seoul fall/regain evnet, this code will enable a fighting to capture obj from both sides, results in interetsing capture- recapture maneuvor. once red side captured given obj, the "i want to take the obj back drive/initiative" will be shifted to blue side( if you still have energetic units), and the amount of drive/initiative shift can be edited from 0% to 100%, making the fighting back weak or strong. Note - such fighting will consume ground unit power-morale, supply, energy, etc. once both side units getting weak, the fight stalled untill new fesh units moving into the hot zone. in my previous tweak, both sides have closer force ratio, so the fighting is easily seen. after i increasing blue power, red become more hesitate to attack, and can not do capture-recapture anymore.

- in win conditon events, easy. you can add new objs to capture to win/lose. fewer target obj, easier, more obj, tougher - just make sure you have sufficient units to go thru heavy land/airstrike fighting. if both sides has no units to achieve their obj, the war will end as the setting in time out event trigger.

- Among the triggers, the one i most want to activiate is [ combined forces go on offensive/defensive].but it's hard to do it and the result is quite unpredictable.

Code: Select all

#IF_FORCE_RATIO A 6 2 L 8 

A = aircarft, can be replaced with G = ground unit or vehicle?
6 = china
2 = allied force/ US+Taiwan
L = less than, can be replaced with G = greater than
8 = force ratio value, can be set to other number,

the formula is..

( china ac quantity / allied ac quantity )* 10

this code says.. if the aircraft ratio, (red ac quantity/blue ac quantity)*10 lower than 8..blue will launch major offensive. In othe word, if each side has 10 ac from start, blue aircraft downs 3 red ac, (7/10)*10=7, then
triggers blue ground major offensive, simulates BLUE air power slightly dominate the air.

i try to tweak it by replacing "A" with "G", and setting a force ratio figure around 5-7..guess what, at some time point of campaign, [news
report] said [ 1000 allied force on major offensive] , then [ 1005 allied force on defensive], ground posture switching between the two ever y 5 mintues, and seems lasting foreever! Apparently triggers conflicts in my setting.

so, it's hard to decide the right force ratio figure..OTOH, aircraft force ratio is dynamic as ac can be resupplied continuously, you can expect [major offensive] trigger on and off. BUT ground unit force ratio is more one-way result..once destroyed, ground units won't be resupplied anymore. yet there could be an exception - the reinforcement. if reinforcement units can be activated at given time, and have a
sufficient quantity, the losing side could have a magic major offensive.

8. NOTE - my campaign tests are done with 64x time compression - in such case the 2d campaign calculation is simplified - so the test result could be different in lower time compression. for normal campaign calculation, the max time compression is limited at 16x.

Summary - if you set blue on defensive from the begining, you can have blue win by..

- set some independent battalions to catpure designated obj to win, while leaving rest units in defensive.
- reduce red ground units, increase blue units, reduce blue to-win obj, increase red to-win obj. set force ratio trigger properly to fire major
offensive - The major offensive needs a major target obj!
- if you set ground force ratio to trigger major offensive, 3d flyers should do their best to nail as many red ground units as possible, to help the
trigger fire ASAP. if set ac force ratio for trigger, shooting down as many red ac as possible to make the offensive happen- and keep that ratio
till gound unit getting exhausted/offensive stalls.

so- not that hard right? a very simple campaign can ends in few hours. the more units add, it gets more complex- and interesting.

fiddling the balance of power properly, giving simmer a "little" chance to change the result of war, the campaign could become a truely thrilling one.

[derStef]

1. organized Brigade-Battalion tens to work as a group and respond collectively to major offensive order. If you want such massive,
aggressive, intentional movement, you got to count on such orgainzed
units.

ok, i'll edit like that: Brigarde:
-unit properies/unit flags=32, also name (4 for e.g.)
-Ground Page/AObj <- here i have to give him the targetID, should I do it in that case?, give Division name (3 for e.g.), what orders
then underorderd/parent Battalion:
-unit properies/unit flags=32, also name (623 for e.g.)
G-round Page/AObj <- here i have to give him the targetID, should I do it in that case or not?, give Division name (3 for e.g.), what Orders?


my question is, have i to give all batallions in one brigade, the brigade's AObjID? or can they have differend? or should i set Brig AObjID to 0, and only give the underordered/parent battalions an id? same about the "orders" brig to "reserve" and only parent battalions other orders, or what?

2. in contrast, battalion can be added as "independent unit", not belong to a Brigade. in this case, if a built-in order given, it may-or may not follow it. the single unit may act agressively or passively( defend/reserve). such setting has its pros and cons..
for example, as situation is good- a pre-ordered armor unit can rapidly move to capture port Ba-li. as situation is bad-the unit may stay longer
at its reserve postion to slow down the move of red. Organized brigade-battalion tends to run away for reserve than independent unit.

so i'll set the "indipendent" batallions:
unit properies/unit flags=0
Ground Page/AObj <add>0
OK?
how much of them do you prefer?
rather heavy units like armored, sp arty, mech or rather infantry and so on? i think heavies....tanks&so..
question about "orders" in general: what means: Assault, Secure, RadarOps & support mean? (i saw "support" for Arty units in RV korea save.cam)

Adding independent battalion units could be a trick or cheat in campaign-making... i placed few armor battalions to give order to capture
designated obj, then edit blue-win conditon,...
Of course- it's not what i want, i prefer the strike-back launched by a major offensive order, excuted by groups of organized units.

ccc, what do you mean with "edit blue-win condition"? do you mean the .tri stuff? and this "strike back", is also a tri edit, right? problem is, that i don't understand that tri stuff....sorry, could you help me out with that?

As the essense of taiwan theater/geographic feature, a major attack axis like korea is hard to established..so mutiple-point assult sounds more
doable.

you mean via .tri tweak,am i right? by adding more target IDs for win?

4. [obj-linking] and [obj movement cost values] must be checked closely.

what do you prefer for: foot, wheeled & tracked? have we also to edit the ohter ones (Static, Naval,...)? 0? 30? more or less? whats the upper limit, when do they stop move to there? 200?

obj-linking - some must be linked, other must be deleted

how can i make a distinction, what should be linked or deleted?

- in win conditon events, easy. you can add new objs to capture to win/lose. fewer target obj, easier, more obj, tougher - just make sure you have sufficient units to go thru heavy land/airstrike fighting. if both sides has no units to achieve their obj, the war will end as the setting in time out event trigger.

ok, i'll add more armored and/mech and Marine units, ok?
and yes, as i said, i'm too dumb for .tri's ATM....

- Among the triggers, the one i most want to activiate is [ combined forces go on offensive/defensive].but it's hard to do it and the result is quite unpredictable.

Code: Select all

#IF_FORCE_RATIO A 6 2 L 8 

A = aircarft, can be replaced with G = ground unit or vehicle?
6 = china
2 = allied force/ US+Taiwan
L = less than, can be replaced with G = greater than
8 = force ratio value, can be set to other number,

the formula is..

( china ac quantity / allied ac quantity )* 10

this code says.. if the aircraft ratio, (red ac quantity/blue ac quantity)*10 lower than 8..blue will launch major offensive. In othe word, if each side has 10 ac from start, blue aircraft downs 3 red ac, (7/10)*10=7, then
triggers blue ground major offensive, simulates BLUE air power slightly dominate the air.

i try to tweak it by replacing "A" with "G", and setting a force ratio figure around 5-7..guess what, at some time point of campaign, [news
report] said [ 1000 allied force on major offensive] , then [ 1005 allied force on defensive], ground posture switching between the two ever y 5 mintues, and seems lasting foreever! Apparently triggers conflicts in my setting.

so, it's hard to decide the right force ratio figure..OTOH, aircraft force ratio is dynamic as ac can be resupplied continuously, you can expect [major offensive] trigger on and off. BUT ground unit force ratio is more one-way result..once destroyed, ground units won't be resupplied anymore. yet there could be an exception - the reinforcement. if reinforcement units can be activated at given time, and have a
sufficient quantity, the losing side could have a magic major offensive.

i think, i understood it, but i can't help with such things, please again, could you make the .tri files for my/our tweaks? please, you know much more about....and i don't understand it really...

8. NOTE - my campaign tests are done with 64x time compression - in such case the 2d campaign calculation is simplified - so the test result could be different in lower time compression. for normal campaign calculation, the max time compression is limited at 16x.

ah, ok, i always believed that, now a got it exactly described, thanks ccc!

Summary - if you set blue on defensive from the begining, you can have blue win by..
- set some independent battalions to catpure designated obj to win, while leaving rest units in defensive.
- reduce red ground units, increase blue units, reduce blue to-win obj, increase red to-win obj. set force ratio trigger properly to fire major
offensive - The major offensive needs a major target obj!
- if you set ground force ratio to trigger major offensive, 3d flyers should do their best to nail as many red ground units as possible, to help the
trigger fire ASAP. if set ac force ratio for trigger, shooting down as many red ac as possible to make the offensive happen- and keep that ratio
till gound unit getting exhausted/offensive stalls.

so- not that hard right? a very simple campaign can ends in few hours. the more units add, it gets more complex- and interesting.
one.

thanks for summary. i'll follow it, but major target id, that also .tri stuff,or not?



thanks Great post again!!!!

[Parislord]

Correct, my point being that I'd like to see a campaign from a pre-AMRAAM/AIM-9M era...

Now here's the really dumb question: why does there have to be a working ground campaign? One of the more unique aspects of this setting is that it resembles a modern-day version of the Battle of Britain, being that before anyone is going to send troops, air superiority must be seized. Historically, most of the conflict has not involved more that ships and a/c in the period of the cold war.

[derStef]

yes, of course, it would also be very nice to have a pre 1982 campaign! for sure my next one!
you have to understand the "rules of Editing process" i mean, "first we need a fully working groundwar,THEN we add new models and so on". These are not my words, but they are right. first we need a real working one & not a half finished, buggy one. yes, i also really want these models as fast as possible in, but i'm not the master of models, you know....

[ccc]

my question is, have i to give all batallions in one brigade, the brigade's
AObjID? or can they have differend? or should i set Brig AObjID to 0, and
only give the underordered/parent battalions an id? same about the
"orders" brig to "reserve" and only parent battalions other orders, or what?

i dont know. FWIW giving brigades and battalions target id and orders can orientate them to do some thing. if not, they'll follow the new order
from campaign AI. i checked default korea cam, many- or most
brigade/battalion has no target id and just [reserve] order !! yet they move according to [ground posture] AI. try it. btw unit flags=32 seems to be a must have for brigade and battalions.

i aslo check the organization of default korea ground units - as PMC wiki
said, few Divisions, each one has "many" Brigades. each Brigade has 2-5 battalions( mostly 3 ). AND there are several [ independent Battalion],
show (no parent), means these unique battalions are not part of a Brigade.

for adding more realistic OOB, you may check taiwan army OOB info on the other thread.. create a list and assign their desingation number first.
When i run TacEdit [check unit] function for my cam, there're lots bugs!

for Brigade action order - i only use capture, defend, secure, and reserve.
the rest, i do try assult, no aggressive movement noted.

[obj movement cost] = i vaguely remembered we've some talk back in
F4Alliance/F4balkan/SP era. the value is calculated by many factors, such
as terrain type, up or downhill, town popoulation and building
density/complexity, bridge quality and size, distance from one obj to the
other, etc. hard to say what's the right number but - if you tweak the
number intentionally, you can led both sides moving to a designed
attack-defend route/axis. static, naval and air values, leave them alone.

how can i make a distinction, what obj should be linked or deleted?

err.. don't bother with it ATM. the work also needs a tweak/check on
missing road, bridges, etc.

Correct, my point being that I'd like to see a campaign from a
pre-AMRAAM/AIM-9M era...

then the timeframe should be 1950-1980. more knife fight. the best AAMs
are US AIM54A/C, AIM7E/F/M, and AIM-9L. Taiwan uses AIM9P. China
uses PL-2/ AA-2.

Now here's the really dumb question: why does there have to be a
working ground campaign? One of the more unique aspects of this setting
is that it resembles a modern-day version of the Battle of Britain, being hat before anyone is going to send troops, air superiority must be seized.
Historically, most of the conflict has not involved more that ships and a/c
in the period of the cold war.

you are right. BUT if there's no ground war to capture some objective, we can only end the air-air, air-sea war by [ time out ] trigger.. that's, when campaign running for X days, it ends.

Establisihing air/sea superiority first probably a bit outdated in these days,
this principal is quite popular in past decades. Today, china with more
theater ballistic missiles and stronger rapid-response special forces, tactics changed to..
- shock and awe. massive, all-measure at first strike before taiwan and
allied can respond.
- decapitation. destroy or capture key/choking point.
- expected time to control taiwan, from 7 days down to 48 or 72 hours.

my campaign tweak try to simulate such massive, all-aspect invasion with
features like..
- after first salvos of TBM strike, red infantry and light armoured units
lands on taiwan from covered fishingboats, container or tanker ships near
north, midde, south taiwanese ports. their targets are .. west coast airbases to reduce blue air power and allow more airmobile troops(reinforcemetn units), secure port for more heavy units(reinforcement), main cities(Taipei, Taichung, Kaohsung). the heavily guarded Taipei obj will be attacked from two or three directions. meanwhile, taiwanese navy ships are too late to respond/intercept these covered civil ships - play no role in the secene. and taiwanese ac are all occupied by overwhelming red ac, no spare flights to do AG mission. in my test, it did show my designed progress - many taiwn airbases captured or disabled, only very few AB operatonal from east coast. in some timeframe, the only allied air power comes from US carriers and Japan airbases!

Of course we ca design campaign for old style tactic - air and sea comes
first, then a smaller ground war, like 1947 Chinmen(Kinmen) cenerio..red
captures that island, then win. or a 1960-70 scenerio around Peng Hu
island- a jump-island strategy proposed during those years. in these case, blue will only face red air and sea power in the beigning, then, if the
[reinforcement unit] feature works, let many RED units show up on these
island few days later.. they can be assigned to capture some obj, then ends the war shortly.. the picture is closer to you idea right?

[derStef]

Again ccc thanks for the great posts, they really help me!
so what do you think, how i should move further?
Should i try now to get an realistic ground OOB and Obj linked & movementcost edits?
BTW, yes i also think that "parent=32" is a must for ground troops. For Airdefense i saw always [Parent]&[Ordered]=40

OR
Do we have to wait for somekind of Taiwan v0.5????? can anybody help us out here with that tiling & road making stuff? SnakeMan? time for and overworked Tawain theater terrain?

is it sensibly or a good idea to concentrate all power on that low stage, buggy terrain? i mean CAN WE GET OUR GROUND WAR ISSUES AND PROBLEMS SOLVED ON THAT v0.4 OR HAVE WE TO WAIT FOR A OVERWORKED/FIXED TERRAIN (-v0.X?)???

BTW CCC can you send me one of our .tri files? please, i'm ATM not able to make/edit some...


cheers

[ccc]

so what do you think, how i should move further?
Should i try now to get an realistic ground OOB and Obj linked & movementcost edits?

you can try add realistic OOB first, and adjust bridge movemnt cost value too. bridges in taiwan, are mostly made of concrete or high-bearing steel. infantry/wheels/armors can easily pass them. the obj with higher mov cost are inland hills.. note- they are pretty steep, check in 3d!

obj linking tweak can be done later.

is it sensibly or a good idea to concentrate all power on that low stage, buggy terrain? i mean CAN WE GET OUR GROUND WAR ISSUES AND PROBLEMS SOLVED ON THAT v0.4 OR HAVE WE TO WAIT FOR A OVERWORKED/FIXED TERRAIN (-v0.X?)

no scheduled release date for next patch. enjoy what you have now.

BTW CCC can you send me one of our .tri files? please, i'm ATM not able to make/edit some...

sure, it's a bit buggy and not fully functional - combined with [my test cam], blue can win in 24 hours. i'll send tri later..the campaign result will up to [your cam tweak-the ground force ratio].

btw, i noted SM direct Taiwan to use its own movies via tdf.. so you won't see movies played as event triggered.

[Parislord]

Never mind, that scenario (shock and awe) sounds far more intense!

[ccc]

Never mind, that scenario (shock and awe) sounds far more intense!

well..the red do try hard to copy it on taiwan.. in RL the major difference is, military hardware shock-n-awe only acount for a small part, the main part is infiltration-politically, economically, and most of all, psycholoigically. the red did it pretty well in past years.

[derStef]

UPDATED FIRST POST!
NEW VERSION OF MY MOD!
NOW WITH THE WEAPONSLOAD EDITS AND SO ON...

CHEERS!

@Parislord, have you recieved my PM?

[ccc]

alright.. not campaign test report..

i screwed up my campaign files after trying to add a new bridge obj.

i added that new obj with tacedit, link objs, setting everything. but the obj does not show up in 3d.

after that, my test cam corrupted.

i still remember that i can not add a new obj to isralei theater months ago.

so - any idea to do the job?

[Snake Man]

i screwed up my campaign files after trying to add a new bridge obj.
i added that new obj with tacedit, link objs, setting everything. but the obj does not show up in 3d.
after that, my test cam corrupted.

All this could be avoided by using TCL scripts... but no, nobody is interested. Fine, start from scratch then, MUHAHA

[ccc]

i screwed up my campaign files after trying to add a new bridge obj.
i added that new obj with tacedit, link objs, setting everything. but the obj does not show up in 3d.
after that, my test cam corrupted.

All this could be avoided by using TCL scripts... but no, nobody is interested. Fine, start from scratch then, MUHAHA

come on - i tried to read/learn, the script just too hard for me! the doc make me headache. . honestly i hardly use tacedit in past years.. when i find i've difficulty learning TCL, i try Tacedit instead in past days. i think my humble experience can be applied to very small campaigns, but not big ones- TCL rules.

wait - i mean- i screwed up files after trying to add a new obj ... does adding new obj do with TCL scripts? i guess not.

[ccc]

a short report -

last night i tried to add some reinforcement units, no success, those units won't show oup.

i aslo did a test - lower the [obj mov cost] between Chinmen island and a China coastal obj .. of course the link cross over the SEA. . see if red ground units can move to capture blue obj on island, as amphibious landing. well, it failed.

i checked unit type with F4browse..the unit [move type]..

ac, helo - 4 or 5
ships, sub -6
vehicles -3
rocket/artillery - 2
infantry - 1
SAM - 0 or 2

it seems the values are related to moving speed, not indicate the terrain they can pass.

[Parislord]

UPDATED FIRST POST!
NEW VERSION OF MY MOD!
NOW WITH THE WEAPONSLOAD EDITS AND SO ON...

CHEERS!

@Parislord, have you recieved my PM?

Yes, I'll stick with the install I've got, thanks. Messing with regedit is what cost me everything on my last system...

[derStef]

Yes, I'll stick with the install I've got, thanks. Messing with regedit is what cost me everything on my last system...

if you have problems, PM me.
cheers

[derStef]

ON ALL WHO TESTED MY CAMPAIGN. SHOULD I REPLACE THE AMX with CF-18A or F-18A? Parislord wasn't satisfied with the performance of AMX, which i choosed instead of F-CK-1 IDF... so the Hornet has afterburner, better radar,..... i would downgrade some Harpaoints and so stuff. so should i better take an old (F-18A or CF-18A) Honret for it or not?
or other solutions? tell my what YOU think!


Please keep on thesting, Thanks to ALL!
Cheers

Stef

[ccc]

@derstef - send me your *.cam and *.tri. i'll test it.

i just don't want to touch database stuff untill I got better running campaign(s).. acutally im still tweaking obj-linkng/adding new obj for test.

[RifleFighter]

ground forces problem...


the blue forces do not attack the red forces after a few hours as well but the red forces coming much faster...

another problem is that there is no CAS missions for any blue forces in the ATO, I know that I can fix that up but may be you can fix that so the computer will set this thing up by himself?

cheers
RF

[ccc]

ground forces problem...
the blue forces do not attack the red forces after a few hours as well but the red forces coming much faster...

yes- i've said it for several times.. blue units in Taichung area retreating.. only few units left. some units may come back - up to tri file to some extent..even with blue on major offensive, they tend to retreat immediatly.

another problem is that there is no CAS missions for any blue forces in the ATO, I know that I can fix that up but may be you can fix that so the computer will set this thing up by himself?

CAS ac.. well i think most blue ac have high AA mission roles and occupied by those missions - only dedicated ac, like A-10 or su25, will be tasked CAS in all case of flgiht.. to be honest, the CAS will mostly count on taiwanese attack helicopter fleet, AH-1, OH-58, and soon-to-come AH-64D.

cheers
RF

[RifleFighter]

ground forces problem...
the blue forces do not attack the red forces after a few hours as well but the red forces coming much faster...

yes- i've said it for several times.. blue units in Taichung area retreating.. only few units left. some units may come back - up to tri file to some extent..even with blue on major offensive, they tend to retreat immediatly.

another problem is that there is no CAS missions for any blue forces in the ATO, I know that I can fix that up but may be you can fix that so the computer will set this thing up by himself?

CAS ac.. well i think most blue ac have high AA mission roles and occupied by those missions - only dedicated ac, like A-10 or su25, will be tasked CAS in all case of flgiht.. to be honest, the CAS will mostly count on taiwanese attack helicopter fleet, AH-1, OH-58, and soon-to-come AH-64D.

cheers
RF

why do they tend to retreat? in the beginning the blue can beat them up with a little artillery support and may be air support.. what do you think?

[derStef]

why do they tend to retreat? in the beginning the blue can beat them up with a little artillery support and may be air support.. what do you think?

Well, thats one of our basic questions. i gave blue units actions to stop the invasion, but if you run the camp, the most units try to flee or don't move.
reasons could be: broken/false links & roads, too less bridges,....
it could also be possible that it has definatly something only to do with the .tri file. we need somebody, who can write something like that for me/us......

BTW, RifleFighter, read all posts in my topic, there you can see lot of issues and/or solutions for our probs.... BUT you are on the right track, you have understand, what are we looking for here! good work keep on doing.


@CCC, sorry i have no own .tri edits.. sorry i have no experience with scripting, so very hard for me.
So, should i add F-18As instead of AMXs? yes or no?!? you know i you them to represent the F-CK-1 IDF which isn't in DB.


Cheers & big thanks to all

[ccc]

yes you can use F/A-18A for IDF.

for the blue retreating in Taichung, i've no idea about it yet. Even with more mechanized or armoured units, and set at major offensive, the blue units do not work together for offensive maneuvor! only one or two left for reserve, and the rest retreat.

[Closter]

for the blue retreating in Taichung,

What about setting a higher priority to Taichung in the .cam file?. Priority is important to the campaign. In Korea Seoul and Pyongyang are set to Pri=100, and they are well covered by the troops.

[derStef]

for the blue retreating in Taichung,

What about setting a higher priority to Taichung in the .cam file?. Priority is important to the campaign. In Korea Seoul and Pyongyang are set to Pri=100, and they are well covered by the troops.

Taichung is already set to 99.... but goo idea...
hey closter, how far are you with the translated TLC stuff? THanks again..

cheers
Stef

[ccc]

yes in my tests i set Taichung city priority over 90. but all blue units still retreated.. only 1-2 units left to defend. i still can't figure it out.

in early test, most units retreated toweard hill area, Sung-pai, then stuck there. i cut the obj linkg, or edit the obj mov cost, then some fleeing to Pul-li at SE area.. then.. after more tweaks, then all rushing to highy way 206. when their retreating route being altered to highway 206, SOME units will move head-on-head against incoming red units. the clash helps neutralize some red units - accidentally.

as Taichung sits at the border of two PAK areas..i wonder if blue units trying to reinforce Taipei defense? or Kaohsung defense? the city is not a CENTER/highest priority of a PAK! Changing PAK layout may help solving the bug.

in contrast to the defense in Taipei and kaohsung, blue units are more active in defend/secure job.

[ccc]

yes in my tests i set Taichung city priority over 90. but all blue units still retreated.. only 1-2 units left to defend. i still can't figure it out.

in early test, most units retreated toweard hill area, Sung-pai, then stuck there. i cut the obj linkg, or edit the obj mov cost, then some fleeing to Pul-li at SE area.. then.. after more tweaks, then all rushing to highy way 206. when their retreating route being altered to highway 206, SOME units will move head-on-head against incoming red units. the clash helps neutralize some red units - accidentally.

as Taichung sits at the border of two PAK areas..i wonder if blue units trying to reinforce Taipei defense? or Kaohsung defense? the city is not a CENTER/highest priority of a PAK! Changing PAK layout may help solving the bug.

in contrast to the defense in Taipei and kaohsung, blue units are more active in defend/secure job.

[derStef]

HEY ALL i have set the ROC ground forces as CCC told me.
i have to make some compromises, but i think it is good enough for that..
No other edits on RED for now.

i set the "movement cost" for the more or less important areas to 10.
and broke some links to the middle of taiwan.

now, CCK AB and area is defended good by blue. BUT most blue units aren't moving! Reds are only really moving in south Taiwan, reach Pintung.
no moves in East taiwan.

EVERYBODY WHO WANTS IT, PM ME! CCC?

I THINK THE PROB NOW IS REALLY THE .TRI FILE!!!!
IS THERE SOMEBODY WHO CAN WRITE A .TRI FILE????? PLEASE!
i would give you some goodies.



THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!!!!

I followed after this for ROC army:

6th Army - Northern Taiwan

106, 116, 118, 152, 153, 176, 178 Infantry Brigades
269 Motorized Infantry Brigade
351 Armored Infantry Brigade
542, 543 Armor Brigades
21 Artillery Command
53 Engineer Group
73 Signals Group
33 Chemical Warfare Group

8th Army - Southern Taiwan

103, 108, 117, 136, 137 Infantry Brigades
298 Motorized Infantry Brigade
395 Armored Infantry Brigade
564 Armor Brigade
43 Artillery Command
54 Engineer Group
39 Chemical Warfare Group

10th Army - Central Taiwan

102, 104, 107, 157, 169, 192 Infantry Brigades
200 Motorized Infantry Brigade
373 Armored Infantry Brigade
586 Armor Brigade
58 Artillery Command
52 Engineer Group
74 Signals Group
36 Chemical Warfare Group

Hua-Tung Defense Command - Eastern Taiwan

128, 129 Infantry Brigades


start from the follwoing - coordinates at the end of unit. these units do not belong to any div. let me know if it help the TCL or manual tweak.

the unit mission should be set to defend, or secure.

-----------------------------------------------------
Penghu Defense Command

163, 168 Infantry Brigades M16 infantry 473, 354 469, 348
503 Armor Brigade M48 tank 471, 354
101 Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion (1 company) 467 354, special assult unit

Kinmen Defense Command

119, 127, 158 Infantry Brigades , all m16 infantry, from 119 - 354,451 127- 342 450, 158- 333 448
584 Armor Brigade - m41, or use m48 349 452
Artillery Command - HQ unit ditto
101 Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion (2 companies) -special unit.. 353 449

Matzu Defense Command

193, 194 Infantry Brigades - M16 infantry 512,648 505, 640
Artillery Command towed artillergy battalion, 506 640
101 Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion (1 company) - special assult unit 511 648

Aviation and Special Warfare Command

601 (norther) airmobile, infantry m16 636 497
, 602 (central), ditto 590 430
603 (southern) Air Cavalry Brigades 540 288
862 Special Warfare Brigade , special assult unit - 640 429

Tungyin

195 Infantry Brigade M16 521 665
101 Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion (1 company)- special assult unit 521 665