B52 vs SA2 in Vnam

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-25 15:19:00

Just read an article on latest issue of Space&aviation?, featuring the fight between B52 and NVA SA2 operators. there is a declassified pic shows B52 flight plan, attacking Honei from ALL directions. some flanking east, west, north(thru Lao?) sides. excellent reference!
So I fly campaign in vnam beta2, to catch the feeling...ya, Snake Man, How about adding more stuffs? more Sq, more tgt,....

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-25 15:36:00

Yes after building F4ME Mid East Iran, Desert Storm, Falklands example and Balkans futuristic Campaigns, I must say the latest update for Vietnam campaign is out dated by now

More stuff, indeed coming. I would also need target lists for factories, depots, headquarters, CCC (heh) and such locations.

Btw did you try the default Beta2 campaign files, or the updated ones with the carrier group?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-26 00:47:00

The default beta 2 cam, I forget where the update one is. tell me.

say, i think the dl page should be expanded and re-organized to differnet sections, like tools and cam-specific.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-26 01:53:00

The updated Vietnam campaign file can be found at the Vietnam page. Its not on the downloads, hmm maybe our pages are little weird indeed

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-27 09:35:00

Ya, feel really good, the atmosphere over Nam is excelletn, flying pencils, flak puffs, etc.
just need more and more flights. more targets. and more enemy CAPs...never encounter any 17/19/21 in first day!
Say, the cam looks very promising, just need more flaks, moving VCs, air-air engagement, etc. dunno if we can deploy more than 4 sq at a single base.
BTW, It seems very easy to disable a NVAF airbase with 4 F4s. dunno if its realistic?
or should we stop all OCA missions to simulate the historical condition?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-27 14:42:00

Did you try the latest campaign v0.2.2 update?

http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/downloads ... v0.2.2.zip

Now there is lot more squadrons on U.S. side, but something is wrong on the North Vietnam... they wont schedule flights. I'm not sure whats up.

Anyway, hows the SA-2's and AAA look? deadly?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-27 14:52:00

Ya, much better.
Sa2 and AAA are fierce, but i can handle that

Just hope you can get some migs up. no mig, no joy.
and, pliz add more sq on bases. more targets.
Maybe our Vnam specialists could offer a long list of tgts ASAP.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-27 15:36:00

Yeah well I had the impression that Air war in Vietnam was minimal, only few migs.

Of course this is not the reason there is no flights scheduled, its some sort of error in the campaign file. I'll try to fix it on the next update.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-27 15:57:00

great.
my FA gaming told me that, yes, AA war is minimal, and the fight between USN jets and NVAF probably the hottest, I mean the gunfighters. hope we can have that. you know, F-8 is ready.
Besides, I love A-6 style of invasion. low-in, low-out. those tracers are really cool! Dunno if we could edit its graphic and make it brighter

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-29 12:00:00

After the holiday, i can get you more targets, but that's really not the solution. What made flying into North Vietnam so dangerous was the hundreds of Sams and the "thousands" of 37 and 57 mm AAA. You can put them place them randomly around industrialized areas such as railroads. Hanoi was turned into one big GUN.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-29 21:19:00

Which is the more accurate AAA for Vietnam, the KS-19 or K200-AD ?

Also, what ground troops would be accurate, for example tanks, and infantry (Infantry AK-47?) etc?

I can place those quite fast. But what we really need is those key target locations, I have no knowledge of them. I refuse to randomly add "cool" targets, we need historical data.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-29 22:22:00

Okay, understood, just don't start charging for posting in your forum

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2000-12-30 10:05:00

dunno if JimG got any detailed info.
But I remember the Vnam links i posted a while ago contain tons of info.

PMC Youtube channel · Post by **Snake Man** » 2000-12-30 17:19:00

quote:Originally posted by ccc:
Just read an article on latest issue of Space&aviation?, featuring the fight between B52 and NVA SA2 operators.

Well, some SA-2 action for you.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2000-12-30 23:56:00

Man..its time to roll out your beta 3!!

Have you got enough info to adjust land forces composition?

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2000-12-31 06:24:00

Reading these posts sent me scrambling through the house for my old paperback copy of "Linebacker II" It listed targets and dates, squadrons, and routes, but no such luck, it hasn't turned up.

When the B-52's were first sent to Hanoi on December 18th, 1972 (Linebacker II included BUFFs for the first time on the raids into Hanoi) they were required to strictly adhere to the same ingress route over thud ridge that the USAF had used for most of the air war. This rigidity led to heavy losses to sams, It wasn't until December 26th, that the multiple ingress and egress routes referred to by ccc were allowed.

If you have the time to look in a few used book stores, check out John Morrocco's book, RAIN OF FIRE (isbn: 0-939526-14-X) from the "The Vietnam Experience" series of books published by the Boston Publishing Company. Rain of Fire has photos, some maps, and covers the 1969-1973 air war. It was published in 1985, so it might be out of print.

If you can't find it, I'll photocopy what I can, and fax or mail to you too...

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2000-12-31 07:04:00

Thanx Hamm,
I think Snake Man need locations of targets like airfield(done?), ports, factories, ammo depots, electic facilites, CCC

, EWs, fortress, key bridges, AAA, SAM..etc.
Once detailed info available, object-placing will commence.

sorry i do nothing but build few 3d models for this theater, most are LOD2-3 level. hope 3d conversion could move forward in Jan.
the model list here:
A-4/-7
F-104/-105/-4E/-8
Mig-17/-21F/MF
B-57

want to build F102/RF101/F100 but no line drawings.

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-02 10:36:00

I can't wait. I have a pic of an F104 in cammies.
I found that book about the Escalation of the Air war in 72. Hand drawn maps and target photographs. It lists dates and the number of strikes on various targets. I'll see what I can do about pinpointing the major targets like the Petrol refineries, power plants, and railyards.

Here's one cool tidbit.

There's 3 or 4 listings of the NVAF's order of battle, how many aircraft of a certain type at which airfield and so on. It doesn't list their squadrons or anything like that, but it's neat to see how they shuffled the planes around.

The information for the US forces is more complete:

After the May buildup to linebacker,
DaNang had three USAF F-4 Squadrons totalling 59 phantoms; two VMFA squadrons totalling 27 phantoms; and one VMA squadron with 12 A-6's.
Korat had two USAF squadrons with 34 phantoms total; one F-105f/g squadron with 31 thuds; and a EB-66 electronic countermeasures squadron with 20 whales.
Ubon had 5 USAF squadrons with 92 phantoms;
Udorn had 5 USAF squadrons with 94 phantoms; and one RF-4 squadron with 19 phantoms.
and finally, Takhli had 4 USAF squadrons with 72 phantoms.
Thats a total of 456 aircraft, up from 235 just two months previously.
By December they had another 48 F-111's flying out of Takhli (doing mostly airfield and runway strikes) and 72 USAF A-7s at Korat.
How many can the f4 engine handle?
.

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-03 21:30:00

Nope, the F111's arrived in September, not December, sorry.

PMC Youtube channel · Post by **Snake Man** » 2001-01-03 22:54:00

How about ground troops.

Tanks: T-55, T-62
Infantry: AK-47
Artillery: D-30, 2A65
Engineer: MDK-2-D
HQ: BMP-CMD
Mechanized: BTR-60

for starters, how those sound?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2001-01-04 02:27:00

quote:Originally posted by Snake_Man:
How about ground troops.

Tanks: T-55, T-62
Infantry: AK-47
Artillery: D-30, 2A65
Engineer: MDK-2-D
HQ: BMP-CMD
Mechanized: BTR-60

for starters, how those sound?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Ya, before we can add more new toys, thats OK. BTW, you got to decide the composition of ground unit, their quantities, or translate their real quantities into f4's, like tank 29, BTR10, etc. ( and VC 1000?

)

dont forget SA7? and AT3.
not very sure about that.

perhaps Hamm or JimG can offer some help.

PMC Youtube channel · Post by **Snake Man** » 2001-01-04 14:45:00

Can you do the B-52 and KC-135 skins?
And was it possible to add "smoke" to planes, is this some F4Browse edit?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2001-01-04 15:59:00

quote:Originally posted by Snake_Man:
Can you do the B-52 and KC-135 skins?
And was it possible to add "smoke" to planes, is this some F4Browse edit?

Err..I seldom do skins lately. its time critical to build a new one,
I borrow JimG's Buff skin, do some modification..and on your way now.
hope its acceptable for the time being, Basil's replied my request.

BTW, no photo reference for kc135. so...
and there comes along with an excellent F111 skin, from F4C, by Reinner? Best for Vnam i think.

Smoke thing better ask RPG first, Rhino is open to hear us on F4terrain.

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-04 20:48:00

I have photos of the KC-135's in the nam theatre, and did a skin for janes usaf. will be glad to help here...

won't be today, probably tomorrow though.
sorry not sooner.

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 05, 2001).]

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-04 22:13:00

Tazz · Post by **Tazz** » 2001-01-04 22:45:00

That's a FALCON 4.0 KC-135A??? Looks mighty fine! Blue band could be a lil bit thinner but it looks mighty fine!

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2001-01-05 03:07:00

quote:Originally posted by Tazz:
That's a FALCON 4.0 KC-135A??? Looks mighty fine! Blue band could be a lil bit thinner but it looks mighty fine!

Nope. its KC135 in Jane's USAF. skin by Hamm.

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-05 07:41:00

sorry, didn't want to mislead anyone, ccc is right. I am just now working on duplicating it for F4. BTW, the blue SAC band is slightly less wide than the door, as per the pics I have. I just eyeballed it, though, so it could be too wide.

Tazz · Post by **Tazz** » 2001-01-05 16:20:00

Might ofcourse just be the angle I realive now.

Looks very good but perhaps it should be abit more silver than white? Just a thought

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-05 17:25:00

aye, that's the rub. just what color in the palette is silver, then?

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-06 12:53:00

Right then, Here's the KC135. Hope it's more metallic-lookin...

The buggers at nbci (xoom) won't let me post the image here, so
View and/or download at:
http://members.nbci.com/172ndhamm/F4Skins.html

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 06, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 08, 2001).]

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-13 05:20:00

here they are, as requested.

I've posted the bmp's on that nbci-xoom link above.

Hamm.

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 13, 2001).]

brewskie · Post by **brewskie** » 2001-01-13 12:39:00

Tanker needed it big time,outstanding Hamm.

Tazz · Post by **Tazz** » 2001-01-13 13:17:00

AWESOME!!

Eventhough in the later years of the war, especially during the siege of Khe Sahn and later in the Linebacker raids, the B-52's used a *black* underside, not a white one. Just thought I'd mention it

ccc · Post by **ccc** » 2001-01-13 13:30:00

Ya, im confused about buff schemes too.
some buff in metal silver, some in SEA/gray belly, and some in SEA/Black belly.

brewskie · Post by **brewskie** » 2001-01-13 22:44:00

Hornit is doing a skin for the Buff.
Curtis LeMay's SAC will look much better once he's done.

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-14 00:30:00

*fake sigh*
yeah, I knew most of the Buffs in Linebacker had black bellies, like in the first pic, (all the Linebacker missions were night raids) but they look way-more-cool with the white. (like the second pic.) 1st pic

2nd pic

It's a small thing to switch the belly to black, I'll post a Buff like that too.

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 14, 2001).]

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-15 04:06:00

I've posted this stuff at a new hosting site,
http://hammsf4.homestead.com/HammsF4Skins.html

... and here's the new B52 with the black belly:

PMC Youtube channel · Post by **Snake Man** » 2001-01-15 08:08:00

Guys I really appreciate your efforts for these skins, they are great addition to Vietnam Theater. Thank you.

It will definitely give more personal 'Nam feeling when we activate these skins.

As I'm not qualified to judge the skins historically, could you guys discuss which skins are the most historically correct and I'll then get them into the next Beta release?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

172ndhamm · Post by **172ndhamm** » 2001-01-15 15:27:00

Snakeman,
Photo's of B52's on early ARC Light missions during the mid 1960's show them with the metallic finish...
Then I have a 1968 Pic of a B52H, with SEA camoflage and a Black underside.
Then I have several undated pic's from a B52 Veterans Association website and one with a 1987 date, of B52's with SEA camoflage, and the white underbelly.
The all-black low viz plumage they carry now Must have been added during the late '80s.

This is in no way definitive, but just based on my observations of various aircraft at various times.

I've posted a request for the information you asked about at the B52 Association's web forum. Hopefully we'll get an answer quick.

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 16, 2001).]