Vietnam Theater Release Announcement

[Snake Man]

PMC TFW will release Falcon 4.0 Vietnam Theater Beta 3 on this friday (1900hrs GMT).

Features in BETA 3 release include:

- New Autotiled terrain, with most important airbases background tiled & terrain leveled, meaning the airbases are flat with no more "stairs effect" on the runway. The old original segments are still "human made" but untiled terrain is fixed with autotiler utility. Terrain 100% tiled? you'll be the judge of that...
- The world is more populated in the TE mission template and Instant Action.
- Dynamic Campaign. Campaign is still lacking ground movement, but there is extremely heavy Air Defence systems build into North Vietnam. Hanoi is now very dangerous place for US aircrafts.
- Working PAK area map for Campaign.
- Campaign has now US Carrier group Yankee Station launching F-4E and "A-6" aircrafts.

Plus maybe some more extra of what we can manage to squeeze in.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Death_119]

Great news man Good luck with your theater.

[Widowmaker]

Yep fine work

Congratulations

[brewskie]

Good news. I was beta testing yesterday and the new airbases in Thialand are perfect, no steps. Released by Friday snakeman? i better get you that data i promised, by tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by brewskie (edited January 03, 2001).]

[Snake Man]

Update for Jan 3, 2000 GMT 2:40am.

Been up all night tiling the terrain and also placed some objects in the Campaign too. Latest tiling progress from:
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/tiling.html

Airbases background tiled and leveled now:
Da Nang, Kep, Korat AAF, Ubon, Vinh, Sakon Nakhon. These airbases are withtout "Stairs Effect" on the runway.

More stuff tomorrow, now this terrain builder needs sleep... oh btw if anyone is interested, I'm very happy to receive any tiling/object placement help. Also historical location/target/whatever data is very valuable to me. Thanks.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[172ndhamm]

Ok,
MACV's Linebacker study placed the NVAF (VPAF?) order of battle on 10 May, 1972 ( just prior to the Linebacker escalations) as follows:

AIRFIELD MIG21 MIG19 MIG15/17 TOTAL

Bai Thuong 2 2
Dong Suong 12 12
KEP 46 1 47
Kien An 12 12
Phuc Yen 8 49 57
Quan Lang 3 3
Yen Bai 25 32 14 71
--------------------------------------------
TOTALS 93 33 78 204


By 18 December, 1972, the Migs were arrayed as follows:

AIRFIELD MIG21 MIG19 MIG15/17 TOTAL

Bai Thuong 13 13
Gia Lam 4 2 5 11
Hoa Lac 2 3 5 KEP 4 3 27 34
Kien An 4 4
Phuc Yen 8 4 8 20
Quan Lang 1 1
Yen Bai 7 28 22 57
--------------------------------------------
TOTALS 39 40 66 145


Snake Man, tomorrow I'll scan some of the maps showing targets and target lists broken down by attacking aircraft. It doesn't list the exact day during the Linebacker attacks, but it does say exactly how many sorties were flown against each target and a map showing where each target was. For example, F-111's were fragged for 26 separate targets. Like, the Hanoi transformer station had 6 sorties assigned to hit it, dropping 72 bombs at or near the site. I'll try to use some aerial maps I have to pin point the locations of said targets...
Hamm.

[172ndhamm]

Aww Crap, my tables didn't line up.

AIRFIELD MIG21 MIG19 MIG15/17 TOTAL

Bai Thuong 2 mig 21 total 2
Dong Suong 12 mig 15/17
KEP 46 mig 21; 1 Mig19
Kien An 12 mig 21
Phuc Yen 8 mig 21; 49 mig 15/17
Quan Lang 3 mig 15/17
Yen Bai 25 mig21;32 mig19; 14mig 15/17
--------------------------------------------
TOTALS 93mig21; 33mig19; 78mig 15/17 204 total.

by Dec of 72,
AIRFIELD MIG21 MIG19 MIG15/17 TOTAL

Dong Suong 13mig21
Gia Lam 4mig21; 2 mig19; 5 mig15/17
KEP 4 mig21; 3 mig19, 27 mig15/17
Kien An 4 mig 15/17
Phuc Yen 8 mig 21; 4 mig19, 8 mig15/17
Quan Lang 1 mig21
Yen Bai 7 mig21; 28 mig19; 22 mig15/17
---------------------------------------
145 total aircraft
Hope that's better.

[ccc]

Hamm, thats great info!
sounds like we'll have Col. Tomb up there in beta3

Snake Man, how's the packing of new beta? still want f4p or remain current style?
BTW, will Nam skins be included? f4p-swapping or Skineditor2 batch swapping? or leave to players?
I think those converted pits from Jane's USAF, i mean F-4E and F-105 could be mentioned and recommended in readme. they are available at www.falcon40.com or Warlock0's ckpit page.
BTW, if serious fans want that rough A6 pit for a taste, i dont mind release it but, "its just a smaple" should be stressed.

[ccc]

Oh NO, one more serious thing here:
Will you adjust a/c loadouts and wpn features in beta3?

people could complaint that, we didnt include some Vnam-era weapons, like Mk117/118, or some weapons not well-modeled.

a list here:
1. major a/c in Vnam got onboard ECM device? RP4 modify it? ECM too effective?
2. major a/c in Vnam loaded chaff and flare? quantities? I heard they didnt carry too many countermeasures in that period, except for chaff-corridor deploying a/c.
3. AAM should less effective, both IR and SARH. Im afraid we dont have earlier models of aim9 and aim7, even with RP4.
4.Naplam loadouts. short of mk117/118. probably more wanted. I think Chris could modify some Mk bombs for this but, their f4p files could take a while to build.
5.varinats of a/c.
6.Ensure the armament supply is sufficient for USAF and USN, and AAA shell/SAM store for NVA
7. err. i heard SA3 been used in Nam?

[PhantomII]

Snake_Man,

Will players actually be able to land on or take off from the mentioned carrier????

Thanks!

John

[ccc]

quote:Originally posted by PhantomII:
Snake_Man,

Will players actually be able to land on or take off from the mentioned carrier????

Thanks!

John

Nope.
We need some hacking to make deck "landable". it could take a while.

[172ndhamm]

ccc,
re: SA3 in Nam
Ya, I've heard that too, but that it was only in late '72, and in small numbers way up north.

[172ndhamm]

Snakeman, here's target list for the B-52's, F-111's, A-7's, and F4's during the linebacker II campaign.

I've posted 13 different illustrations and maps at the url below, as I didn't want to tie up this forum's bandwidth...
There's also maps showing sam sites across Nvietnam, radar coverage, B-52 ingress and egress routes, and strike package compostitions.

http://members.nbci.com/172ndhamm/f4-maps.html

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 04, 2001).]

[172ndhamm]

hmmmm. the buggers won't let that ubb thingy work. I'm going to have to get a dif free site to store this stuff. oy vey...

OH well. the link above is for all the targets in the hanoi area fragged to the F-4 squadrons during linebacker II.

[172ndhamm]

ya, click the link above, then when you click the link to the target map, if you get the xoom thingy,( buggers! )just hit your refresh button.

[Snake Man]

Uhh, what a Vietnam day ...

First in the late afternoon we were finally able to get TE missions work on large maps, I was caught for that debugging quite some time.

The guys were great today, I received three loads of tiled segments (which look very good). Thanks guys, it is really nice that you are helping me out here.

And to the rest of the night I was tiling myself, got some caps filled out in the Vietnam / Thailand border (I think, or was it Cambodia, dunno heh too damn tired). Hopefully we can close these caps even more for the Beta 3 release, so when you take off from Korat for example, you dont see too much untiled terrain.

Dong Hoi airbase was background tiled and terrain leveled, also Sakon Nakhon's SA airbase and Nam Phung Dam North airstrip is now fixed.

Its now 0409hrs GMT, time for sleep.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[172ndhamm]

The other target lists are up now, at that link above, snake man.
http://members.nbci.com/172ndhamm/f4-maps.html

[ccc]

Hamm,
Excellent pics on your link !!!!
hehe Snake Man, will we got a 6Mega PDF Manual for Vnam theater?
Hope those pics could be included, we dont make any profit from them, right?

[This message has been edited by ccc (edited January 05, 2001).]

[brewskie]

That's good work Hamm,I think that about covers everything. Many of those were strategic targets that the Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted to hit back in 1965-1966. The Error was that Johnson wanted to strike a few targets then negotiate, he repeated the process until it was coined a policy of "gradualism."

Fortunaltey in Desert Storm Bush let the JCS and Schwartzkopf do what they do best

[Tazz]

Fact:

President Kennedy wanted to pull back out of Vietnam. A war from which the weapon industry heavily profited.

Fact:

After President Kennedy was murdered, Johnson became president and almost immediately more and more troops were send to Vietnam.

Fact:

The JCS were in favor of an all out bombing campaign but under Johnson more and more areas were restricted, such as the ring around Hanoi and the area south of Chinese border. In both areas North Vietnamese weapon and fuel supplies were safe against air attack and were stockpiled there during the entire duration of the war.

Fact:

Rules of Engagement laid down by the political top robbed the USAF/USN/USMC aircraft from their technological advantage to engage the enemy at near BVR ranges, by forcing a "visual identification" before engaging. The less agile but more advanced F-4 and to certain extend the F-8 and F-105 aircraft were now put at a disadvantage, not being allowed to engage the enemy at stand-off ranges.

Fact:

Under Nixon and after the LineBacker II raids, North Vietnam was in rubble and the North Vietnamese wanted very much to continue the peace talks.


... If you ask me, Johnson was a puppet for those people responsible for Kennedy's death and his job was to start the Vietnam war, to make it as costly as possible and as long as possible so that other parties could heavily profit from the increased demand for aircraft, weapons and ammo.

The ROE for Pilots over South and North Vietnam were insane and criminal, and I'm sure that without these stupid restrictions the Vietnam war could have been a lot shorter with far less casulties.

Just my 2 cts.

[Snake Man]

Vietnam Theater BETA 3 release DELAYED

Yes unfortunately thats the case guys... we have decided not to release the beta 3 out on public today (however I'm putting out internal Beta 3 for sure, which of course rises the quality bar of future public release).

Reasons of delay:
First, we finally made a breakthrough on the large maps issue of TE missions limitation. Now its possible to create 128 segment (20 x 20 dem data) maps and TE missions, you can check out screenshot here:
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/screensho ... 8-TE-4.jpg
It is our intention to bring that map shown in the screenshot into our Vietnam Theater, where you'll be able to get FULL theater of Vietnam War. This image is the full theater we are going to offer you:
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/screensho ... 28-map.jpg

Second, F4Patch support. We want to add Vietnam Theater to the F4Patch standard of applying mods/patches for Falcon 4.0, but the current F4Patch is not suitable for full theater selection. This is corrected in v3.2 that will be released later and we will wait for this release. The F4Patch v3.2 release is propably coming out next week (thats the word that we got, dont held us accountable if it changes). Using it, you no more run into problems choosing theaters to fly, we can easily add everything that needs to be changed like TE/Campaign files and such.

There you go guys, sorry about this but in the end I think its the best.. we (theater builders all around) dont want to confuse you F4 pilots about these theater selections, this is why we aim for the one click theater change standard.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[brewskie]

No problem here, snakeman. I love clicking that link to the 128 theater.
Tazz, i was reading about LBG's in Nam, seems they had a FAC illuminate the target, then the F-4's would get a lock and pickle.
I'll dig up the story and post it once i find it. Reminds me of Copperhead.

[Snake Man]

Vietnam Theater BETA 3 internal is out now to a selected people.

If you feel that you must test it, and you sincerely want to help out weeding the bugs, you might get into the internal beta team too.

Thanks, now I'm off to a little F4 Vacation!

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Widowmaker]

Well the delay is a good decision
Test some more,
and get it up to 128
take all time neccesary.

I'd like to betatest it though.

Good Luck
and have a nice short vacation

Widowmaker aka Metalhead

[ccc]

Agree with Widowmaker.
BTW, make sure campaign run on 128x128map. people wont like a larger theater without campaign.
Pie..got any1 to figure it?
Basil is helping SEA buff, wait..
Logo?
6 mega PDF manual?

[brewskie]

Just got done doing a little testing on The Beta 3. Snakeman has really increased the defense levels at the target, if you remember RP3 this is similar,but without the fierce flak. . I took out Quan Khe warehouse and on the second mission,the Vinh airbase. Both missions were more difficult to execute successfully than with the beta 2. More Migs and ground defenses to contend with. The Paks are now running. The only thing i noticed unusual was when i was egressing Vinh. My flak/sam suppression A-6 escort seemed to be porpoising. Other than that, smooth as glass,my flight got 5 migs kills. Gotta really appreciate that Sylvian AI. More later.

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by brewskie:
Just got done doing a little testing on The Beta 3. Snakeman has really increased the defense levels at the target, if you remember RP3 this is similar,but without the fierce flak. .

I actually toned down the Hanoi AAA and SA-2 sites, it was simply too much. I added one AAA site to ALL objects in Hanoi city which resulted immediate shotdown and FPS of 3-5 if you fly over it

quote:I took out Quan Khe warehouse and on the second mission,the Vinh airbase. Both missions were more difficult to execute successfully than with the beta 2.

The most work is done for Hanoi area, but I've tried to create some ground units like "infantry AK-47" locations near the Dong Hoi area.

quote:More Migs and ground defenses to contend with. The Paks are now running.

Hows the enemy aircrafts, are the amount of them anywhere near OK?

Oh and the PAK map is very ugly at the moment, I did do it very fast and its only the first test version. There is even one more Priority city added after that I recall.

quote:The only thing i noticed unusual was when i was egressing Vinh. My flak/sam suppression A-6 escort seemed to be porpoising.

Sorry my english (dictionary) did not quite exaplin Porpoising? but do you mean that the escorts mindlessly circled around nothing?

Anybody else have comments for Beta 3 internal?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

Some more candy for you guys, first time I got the Campaign running on 128 segment map.

http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/screensho ... aign-1.jpg

Still work to with the links and units, damned things cant be converted. Anyways, just posted that image for you guys to see the progress.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[brewskie]

All of SE Asia, awesome terrain,a complex running campaign,thousands of ground units ect...that's why F4 is the best

[ccc]

ya..thousands of ground vehicles
dunno if f4 engine can run so many units..hope the calculation of ground unit movement wont slow down campaign too much.

[Snake Man]

There is updated tiling progress image, check it out

http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/tiling.html

I'll bet we get pretty good coverage of the combat zones of Vietnam into the next release. If we are optimistic, maybe the flightpath from most important airbases to Hanoi and back could be all Human Tiled !

PMC TFW
Snake Man