Combined Arms Work Better

[Jagr]

I've been reading about the trials and tribulations of the ME/Desert Storm/Israel Theater projects lately. The geographic location has a great deal of historical combat potential and I really look forward to its completion.

I must say however, that it would be in the best interest of the F4 community if all developers involved could agree on a SINGLE shared course of action, and combine their resources and efforts to producing 1 highly detailed works rather than 3 independant efforts.

Anyone that has ever tiled knows that the difference between "tiled" and "TILED" is night and day. The ability to put in the extra time with hand work cleaning up the errors and miss matched tiles pays off in the long run with a fantastic overall effect.

The effort involved in the 128X128 will create a Terrain that can be used by Campaign builders for many types of campaign rather than having a multiude of various terrains to add to the game each with their own campaign.

I don't know if anyone else is in the same boat, but I have held off offering to tile simply because the effort is divided and I don't want to put in hours of labor on the "wrong" project and end up having it replaced by duplicated work later.

Now that summer is upon us, take a breather, look at the big picture and do some objective analysis of what results in the best end product for the community.

Some of you have some good practical experience in building now..and are learning to fine tune the effort..and thats a great thing. The 3 visible efforts (ME/Is/DS) focus on not only different topics but different (but critical) areas of the MAP. That means that each of the 3 groups has specific info on locations, details, objects, forces etc. that would help create a strong database for the overall terrain.

Take a while and SET REASONABLE goals. There is no way to build the "Everything Theater". The current "ME" concept could provide numerous oppotunities for action in various sections of the MAP, but don't let it get too overextended to appease everyone.

Get some communication going, find a goal that incorporates all 3 objectives and then divide the effort and develop some guidelines to work towards the overall goals, with no bickering, egos, attitides. Be objective about what looks better, what is more accurate, what will work better overall. Share what you've each learned through trial and error. Be willing to accept that some people are going to be stronger in some areas, and let those strengths improve the end product rather than divide the project. Put your differences aside and move forward together in a single effort. I can assure you that people who have not helped before will jump at the chance to work for a single coordinated effort..

Just my 2 cents as someone looking in from the outside hoping this Terrain project works out as well as I hope it will..



[This message has been edited by Jagr (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Snake Man]

I agree.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Death_119]

two words hell not . can't throw all those hours too much have been invested.

[T_Rex]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Death_119:
two words hell not . can't throw all those hours too much have been invested.

Hi there!

I don't mean to pry or sound critical, but how close are you to being done? I personally spent some time on the now-defunct (I think?) ME project. While I regret those hours were "wasted" - they really were not wasted at all. When I get around to helping tile the ODS project I will better for having done part of the ME project.

Also, I hope your reluctance to jump in with the ODS does not mean forever. I mean, chances are you'll get your theater done before ODS, so you would then be able to help with ODS, no?

Just curious - I try not to argue with Death.

T


[This message has been edited by T_Rex (edited April 27, 2001).]

[T Bone]

Well currently ME and ODS efforts are already fused. The initial ME 64 segment map will be released as a public sample before the big 128 map is out. Problem is that right now, Death 119 is working on his own version of Israel with his own textures. We will see how the latest set I have been working my little ass off on compares...

T-Bone

[This message has been edited by T Bone (edited April 27, 2001).]

[T Bone]

quote:Originally posted by Jagr:
Take a while and SET REASONABLE goals. There is no way to build the "Everything Theater". The current "ME" concept could provide numerous oppotunities for action in various sections of the MAP, but don't let it get too overextended to appease everyone.

Get some communication going, find a goal that incorporates all 3 objectives and then divide the effort and develop some guidelines to work towards the overall goals, with no bickering, egos, attitides. Be objective about what looks better, what is more accurate, what will work better overall. Share what you've each learned through trial and error. Be willing to accept that some people are going to be stronger in some areas, and let those strengths improve the end product rather than divide the project. Put your differences aside and move forward together in a single effort. I can assure you that people who have not helped before will jump at the chance to work for a single coordinated effort..
[This message has been edited by Jagr (edited April 27, 2001).]

Thats why 128 map would incorporate conceivably all three of our work, but since someone had to leave we will have 2 Israels floating around

T

[Death_119]

first of all before how far, lets begin with how much was spent.
well i'm talking about 6-7 mounths of work. more then 700 hours thats for sure.
well how much i got israel 100% done, Sinai 100% done and Lebanon 100% done. also i got 40% of egypt and so on. i got something like 700 objects placed in the theater in those 3 areas. i will not join the ODS group till i will know i can add my work.


[This message has been edited by Death_119 (edited April 27, 2001).]

[T_Rex]

quote:Originally posted by Death_119:
i will not join the ODS group till i will know i can add my work.

Ok, I understand you've spent alot of time and energy getting it this far, and I respect the hell out of that. I look forward to seeing your finished project. But that last sentence of yours raises two questions in my mind:
1) if it can't be imported, once you are done with your theater, would you be willing to use your obvious skill on the 128 map; and
2) if it can be imported, would you be willing to have it imported, even if that meant some kind of batch replacing of your tiles?

Thanks for your work,
T

[Death_119]

for 1 don't know.
for 2 yes.

[T_Rex]

quote:Originally posted by Death_119:
for 1 don't know.
for 2 yes.

Fair enough! I can't wait to hear that its done.

Thanks,
T

[T Bone]

Because your work will not pay off. Graphics in this kind of theater is EVERYTHING. Its too bad you lack the vision

T-Bone

[Widowmaker]

Jagr..

You hit the nail excactly....

I agree (then again..I always did )

Widowmaker aka Metalhead..

[Widowmaker]

BTW Death your theater is getting great..especially with the new tiles..

Widmak

[Jagr]

In any project that hopes to achieve a high standard of development is going to go through revisions..some of which will require redoing a lot of material but I have NEVER seen a project that the second phase was not BETTER, STRONGER, and FASTER.. All thwe work you guys have done has been your on the job training. Your efficiency is now far higher than it was, and your experience will allow to you improve the entire effort using the hind sight you now have. Nothing is ever totally wasted.. Information and Experience you guys have gained is very VERY unique IF you can now focus your efforts and move beyond individual "issues"

The reason the Balkans terrain project is succeeding is that the people involved moved past the personal crap, hashed out goals, set their course of action and organized their efforts. There is NO reason why the Middle East region could not be a single HIGHLY detailed terrain with contributions from many many people who would then have the ability to use this COMMUNITY project to develop scenarios to their hearts content.

I have not been involved in this project at all, so I'm speaking as an outsider, but I have seen many real world projects that were fragmented and were never able to reach the level of development they could have.

All of those involved should try and work together to develop the core terrain.. using their combined skill and knowledge to make it simply outstanding..this terrain is possible THE most easily developed once the proper tiles, groupings, styles are set and learned.

I'm sure other reading this would be willing to join in the effort once the group has set a goal and begun to work as a team.. No one wants to see work that doesn't reach the final product..but I bet there is not a tiler in existance that does not look at his previous version and think of ways he could have made revision 2 better...

[ccc]

no no im not getting into trouble water..

We've discussed on this a while ago, just let it gone.

[Death_119]

quote:Originally posted by T Bone:
Because your work will not pay off. Graphics in this kind of theater is EVERYTHING. Its too bad you lack the vision

T-Bone

what pay off, you think i want money or honnor for this project.
No my project was here long before your ME had even a name so don't start to be a big shot and tell me what is right and what is wrong. you know why i'm doing this. i'm doing this cause i want to fly my region in F4, i'm doing this cause i would love to bomb the hell out of this region.
and no one will tell me what is right and what is worng or if i got a lack in vision.
good for you another NEWBIE.




[This message has been edited by Death_119 (edited April 28, 2001).]

[T Bone]

Check the Balkans theater manual and you will see that F4ME was the first theater to ever be conceived.

T-Bone

[T Bone]

quote:Originally posted by Jagr:
In any project that hopes to achieve a high standard of development is going to go through revisions..some of which will require redoing a lot of material but I have NEVER seen a project that the second phase was not BETTER, STRONGER, and FASTER.. All thwe work you guys have done has been your on the job training. Your efficiency is now far higher than it was, and your experience will allow to you improve the entire effort using the hind sight you now have. Nothing is ever totally wasted.. Information and Experience you guys have gained is very VERY unique IF you can now focus your efforts and move beyond individual "issues"

The reason the Balkans terrain project is succeeding is that the people involved moved past the personal crap, hashed out goals, set their course of action and organized their efforts. There is NO reason why the Middle East region could not be a single HIGHLY detailed terrain with contributions from many many people who would then have the ability to use this COMMUNITY project to develop scenarios to their hearts content.

I have not been involved in this project at all, so I'm speaking as an outsider, but I have seen many real world projects that were fragmented and were never able to reach the level of development they could have.

All of those involved should try and work together to develop the core terrain.. using their combined skill and knowledge to make it simply outstanding..this terrain is possible THE most easily developed once the proper tiles, groupings, styles are set and learned.

I'm sure other reading this would be willing to join in the effort once the group has set a goal and begun to work as a team.. No one wants to see work that doesn't reach the final product..but I bet there is not a tiler in existance that does not look at his previous version and think of ways he could have made revision 2 better...

Well the 128 map is in the process of construction right now... I don't think Snakeman or I are caught up in the personal bickering... things are going very well.

T-Bone

[Death_119]

T-bone is saying that they started to tile the ME map in 7/2/00. i started to tile mine in 15/8/00.


[This message has been edited by Death_119 (edited April 28, 2001).]

[ccc]

Stop it Gentlemen, just STOP IT..and back to theater things.

Everybody here IS NOT FORCED to do anything, just do what you like, and enjoy it.

thanx.

[Widowmaker]

Well ccc nothing is forced on to nobody
.......


Like Dudi I wanna finnish my 'own' theater and have a hard time to set my priority's straight..

Yet on the otherhand it would be great if everyone would join ODS....as they are all Midlle East territory..(In the real world )

I respect Dudi's work and it is getting better everytime he gives me a glance at it
It has a got a very good athmosphere and the objectpalcing is awesome..really nice...He takes his job seriuosly.

However I'm very pleased we got two theaters getting together on the 128 map..coherent in texture.zip/bin Map creation/possibity to import and general atmosphere..
Things are looking fine for this theater
and I will/want to participate as much as I can...


Widowmaker

btw..you are all welcome to join Iceland..lol

[This message has been edited by Widowmaker (edited April 28, 2001).]

[Death_119]

flames flames flames i'm on fire . CCC don't worry the day is still far far away for me to be angry and to take a gun and to shoot my monitor . till then thank you widow for the support. wooooowwwww i just ignitioned my self fire fire flames!!!!!!

[ccc]

well done Dudi.
Egypt? or Iraq?
release date of next beta?

my 2c for next beta:
1.skyfix?
2.new splashscreens(full colors )
3.new shapes(closely monitor the release date of LOD editor)
4.so campaigns cover 1960-1980?
5.Hebrew vocals/theme music?



[This message has been edited by ccc (edited May 04, 2001).]

[Death_119]

my plans.
well ok i will list those up:

1) 100% tiled theater.
2) 100% 3d placed.
3) skins made by CCC and the viper team.
4) 3 campaigns, for now only the lebanon war is in for sure.
5) buging codec for the chance of having the abilety to export my own movies to the game.
6) working on a UI of my theater.
7) a new colour splash screen.
8) sound track.
9) adding voices in hebrew and maybe arabic espacially in the airfilds.
10) permition from ripper to add his israeli missiles for an addon. and also the same situation about future jets.
about the release date have no idea but it will take some time.