[ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
Moderators: Lone Wolf, Snake Man
-
- Chief of Staff
- Posts: 4857
- Joined: 2000-08-06 22:01:01
[ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
In the past-RPG/SP era, this part was handled by true experts working on real thing.
As tweaking this part of data may affect the balance or realism in sim, most falcon versions keep the settings untouched for years..
i am not an expert in this field- and don't plan to seriously touch it. just start a thread for sharing thoughts and discussing this interesting playground.
here's a screenshots - open F4browse, go to Radar data sectoin, open [Radar data 1]..
[Used By] - shows what vehicle/ac use this radar. most F-16C use it..so the data is modelled for some variant of APG-68. ( hmm.. i found F-16A use radar 87, but all the same radar value as radar 1)
[Acd Usage] - means this radar type also used in [ac definition -sensor types] record.
[Radar Flags] - features of this radar. options look quite straigthforward.
Now comes to the main [RCD Data] page..
Sound 162 - which beep sound used when painted by this radar. it directs to #162 sound.
RWR 0.6 - chance to alert radar warning receiver/interceptability? 60% chance to alert radar painted ac?
Beam Width 0.0401426 - radar wave beam width, 360 deg =3.14159, so it is about 4.6 deg?
Look Down range 0.6 - this one seems related to [ Range ] value.. 0.6 means 60% of range value?
Beam Dist 0.7 - i don't know what it means.. 70% of range value? for what?
No name slot 37 - ??
Low RWR Gain 0.6 - ?
Azimuth 1.0472 - this means radar sweep angle, = 120 deg.
Chaff Chance 0.012 - as it says, but the value is hard to set.
Data Index 0 - ??
Sweep Time 1.0472 - in second? unit unknown? sweep 120 deg?
Range 213812 - radar range in feet? unit? 213812 ft is about 65km.
Lock time 4000 - time to lock on a target, 4000ms? unit = ms?
ECM range 0.48 - i think it means this radar can resist ECM when tgt within 48% of max radar range?
Min 152.74 - well.. minimal radar working range in feet? that's 46.5 m.??
====================
Once in a while i found a site with a lot of publised radar data, covering major combat ac in the world.. but the site was gone..maybe janes or other printed material could provide such info..well, the info is not classified, just beam width, sweep angle, output, and vague range number.
BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.
As tweaking this part of data may affect the balance or realism in sim, most falcon versions keep the settings untouched for years..
i am not an expert in this field- and don't plan to seriously touch it. just start a thread for sharing thoughts and discussing this interesting playground.
here's a screenshots - open F4browse, go to Radar data sectoin, open [Radar data 1]..
[Used By] - shows what vehicle/ac use this radar. most F-16C use it..so the data is modelled for some variant of APG-68. ( hmm.. i found F-16A use radar 87, but all the same radar value as radar 1)
[Acd Usage] - means this radar type also used in [ac definition -sensor types] record.
[Radar Flags] - features of this radar. options look quite straigthforward.
Now comes to the main [RCD Data] page..
Sound 162 - which beep sound used when painted by this radar. it directs to #162 sound.
RWR 0.6 - chance to alert radar warning receiver/interceptability? 60% chance to alert radar painted ac?
Beam Width 0.0401426 - radar wave beam width, 360 deg =3.14159, so it is about 4.6 deg?
Look Down range 0.6 - this one seems related to [ Range ] value.. 0.6 means 60% of range value?
Beam Dist 0.7 - i don't know what it means.. 70% of range value? for what?
No name slot 37 - ??
Low RWR Gain 0.6 - ?
Azimuth 1.0472 - this means radar sweep angle, = 120 deg.
Chaff Chance 0.012 - as it says, but the value is hard to set.
Data Index 0 - ??
Sweep Time 1.0472 - in second? unit unknown? sweep 120 deg?
Range 213812 - radar range in feet? unit? 213812 ft is about 65km.
Lock time 4000 - time to lock on a target, 4000ms? unit = ms?
ECM range 0.48 - i think it means this radar can resist ECM when tgt within 48% of max radar range?
Min 152.74 - well.. minimal radar working range in feet? that's 46.5 m.??
====================
Once in a while i found a site with a lot of publised radar data, covering major combat ac in the world.. but the site was gone..maybe janes or other printed material could provide such info..well, the info is not classified, just beam width, sweep angle, output, and vague range number.
BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.
-
- Colonel
- Posts: 344
- Joined: 2007-01-13 07:59:02
- Gaming Interests: Falcon 4.0
- Editing Interests: Modeling
- Location: Hungary
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
As for radar detection exist also an equation for RWR detection.This is a range modifier as I know. I'm not sure.RWR 0.6 - chance to alert radar warning receiver/interceptability? 60% chance to alert radar painted ac?
Vertical azimuth for radar beam. Width of all or one bar? I don't know how use AI the radar...Beam Width 0.0401426 - radar wave beam width, 360 deg =3.14159, so it is about 4.6 deg?
Yes, if target is in ground clutter.Look Down range 0.6 - this one seems related to [ Range ] value.. 0.6 means 60% of range value?
This range modifier works same way as look down but the activation trigger is the min. doppler speed. If the radial approaching speed is below min. doppler speed (feet/sec) modifier is counted.Beam Dist 0.7 - i don't know what it means.. 70% of range value? for what?
RWR symbol on the RWR sreen. You can find some number in RP5 manual. I have used it when I set in my mode old AC symbol to J-6A.No name slot 37 - ??
Check the first line of my post. I don't know which is which. --> Maybe is written in RP5 manual. (Are they always the same?)Low RWR Gain 0.6 - ?
True but only for AI. Su-27 and MiG-29 is problematic because their azimuth values are only about 30 (!!) degrees. Their radar antennas requires more serios mechanical steering as western radars. Values also to big for MiG-21s and maybe for MiG-23s.Azimuth 1.0472 - this means radar sweep angle, = 120 deg.
Why is hard? I don't understand.Chaff Chance 0.012 - as it says, but the value is hard to set.
I have no idea how affects on AI behavior.Sweep Time 1.0472 - in second? unit unknown? sweep 120 deg?
Yes, in feet but you should check the radar equation in RP5 manual to understand how it is used. As I can remember this is the detection rage if target is "clean". There are no beaming, ECM, chaff, ground clutter and it's RCS value is 1.0 (Falcon doesn't use square meter, it has it's own unit to radar equation)Range 213812 - radar range in feet? unit? 213812 ft is about 65km.
Maybe this affect on AI response time. I have to test it on SAMs and other AC, is not an easy issue.Lock time 4000 - time to lock on a target, 4000ms? unit = ms?
Range modifier as beam and look down. So if you use ECM, you are in ground clutter and you are beaming all three are counted theoretically.ECM range 0.48 - i think it means this radar can resist ECM when tgt within 48% of max radar range?
ECM can be problematic becauase is not counted purely the modifier as I see in some cases. There are ECM strength for each vehicle. This is same for all vehicles (0, max. is 125) but if you set to about 50-70 you can defeat AMRAAM (!) just using the ECM. Other problem that the ECM is not omnidirectional since RP5. Is it clear what I'm saying? So ECM range modifier maybe counts purely if you fly straight ahead to the emitter and also the ECM strength is 0.
Min doppler speed in feet/sec. Maybe you use too old F4Browse I can see the whole text.Min 152.74 - well.. minimal radar working range in feet? that's 46.5 m.??
====================
For red AC many data are wrong.Once in a while i found a site with a lot of publised radar data, covering major combat ac in the world.. but the site was gone..maybe janes or other printed material could provide such info..well, the info is not classified, just beam width, sweep angle, output, and vague range number.
I have done it hundreds or thousands. Answer is definitely YES!BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.
Is it enough detailed?
Last edited by molnibalage on 2009-05-16 14:34:11, edited 1 time in total.
Core 2 Duo E7300, Gigabyte EP43, 4 GB RAM (1066MHz), Shappire Radeon HD4850 1GB
-
- Chief of Staff
- Posts: 4857
- Joined: 2000-08-06 22:01:01
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
ah- thanx for your input.
aircombat in BVR detection stage, the f4browse edits could related to..
Radar Data section
RWD Data section
Vehicle-aircraft Radar CS value
did you tweak the three in some systemic way?
say, for Radar CS value, the baseline is F-16, RCS=1. for RWD data, the parameters are limited to detection range, cover angle, and simplified capability.. missing the RWD sensibility.. or the sensibility value is the one in Radar Data, [RWR 0.6]? in mose cases the [range] value in Radar record and RWD record is different.
btw i agree russian ac radars need fruther work.
great. how about sharing your tweaking and test results? say, many factors can affect the result of aircombat( i mean the BVR detection-react stage), and all the edits should have a [basic value] for comparsion.I have done it hundreds or thousands. Answer is definitely YES!BTW, will the subtle change on radar data affect aircombat in falcon world? Who knows..any change will need extensive test.
aircombat in BVR detection stage, the f4browse edits could related to..
Radar Data section
RWD Data section
Vehicle-aircraft Radar CS value
did you tweak the three in some systemic way?
say, for Radar CS value, the baseline is F-16, RCS=1. for RWD data, the parameters are limited to detection range, cover angle, and simplified capability.. missing the RWD sensibility.. or the sensibility value is the one in Radar Data, [RWR 0.6]? in mose cases the [range] value in Radar record and RWD record is different.
btw i agree russian ac radars need fruther work.
-
- Commander-In-Chief
- Posts: 9354
- Joined: 2000-07-31 22:01:01
- Gaming Interests: ArmA, ArmA 2, Falcon 4.0 and OFP.
- Editing Interests: All, I (try) to edit everything.
- Location: PMC
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
I was shuffling through which forum area this is better suited, theater tools or theaters, I chose theater tools for now.
Certainly this is not suitable for Falcon 4 general area, this is definitely editing based stuff
Certainly this is not suitable for Falcon 4 general area, this is definitely editing based stuff
PMC Tactical Forum New User Registration please read new info here.
PMC since 1984
Editing knowledge, visit PMC Editing Wiki
The leading, most detailed and comprehensive modification made for the Vietnam War - Vietnam: The Experience homepage
View our videos in PMC Youtube channel
PMC Tactical forum Advanced Search is power.
"ALPHA BLACK TO PAPA BEAR. ALL RUSSIANS ARE TOAST. OVER."
PMC since 1984
Editing knowledge, visit PMC Editing Wiki
The leading, most detailed and comprehensive modification made for the Vietnam War - Vietnam: The Experience homepage
View our videos in PMC Youtube channel
PMC Tactical forum Advanced Search is power.
"ALPHA BLACK TO PAPA BEAR. ALL RUSSIANS ARE TOAST. OVER."
-
- Colonel
- Posts: 344
- Joined: 2007-01-13 07:59:02
- Gaming Interests: Falcon 4.0
- Editing Interests: Modeling
- Location: Hungary
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
I have an excel table about this. I will send you soon. (I'm not at home currently.)great. how about sharing your tweaking and test results?
I didn't touch all because it is very hard to track down the weight of every changes. You will see what I changed. I have some resources, war experiences, manuals and leaked info about capabilites. So mostly I play with values until the game experience will be closer to IRL situations.did you tweak the three in some systemic way?
No only russian IMHO...btw i agree russian ac radars need fruther work.
Core 2 Duo E7300, Gigabyte EP43, 4 GB RAM (1066MHz), Shappire Radeon HD4850 1GB
-
- Colonel
- Posts: 344
- Joined: 2007-01-13 07:59:02
- Gaming Interests: Falcon 4.0
- Editing Interests: Modeling
- Location: Hungary
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
Core 2 Duo E7300, Gigabyte EP43, 4 GB RAM (1066MHz), Shappire Radeon HD4850 1GB
-
- Chief of Staff
- Posts: 4857
- Joined: 2000-08-06 22:01:01
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
i just checked the list.. lot's edits.. tho i don't know if the new value reflect RL thing.. it looks impressive.
btw, ac radar section, i did not notice any edits/new values about range/sweep time/azimuth/lock time?
here's a list i made long time ago.. probably around FF3 days.. it seems the radar edits could be a huge task for any DB editor.
Code: Select all
Radar slot list..
0 for all non-radar ground vehicles and ships.
1 APG68? for all F-16s and AJ37.?
2 F102/F106 - should split both
3.4 =no use
5 for all mig21s - should split .
6 for all mig23s - should split
7 for mig25 and mig25R - mig25R use smaller radar/mig21
8. mig31
9 2S6, K200D, SIDAM
10 A50, Tu26?
11 mistral V? -MANPADS won't need radar
12 USSR ship search radar
13 AH64D, B52, B57, Kfir, A-3, Su20/22? mixed!!
14 buccanear KA6D?
15 =no use
16 pegasus ADS
17 B-2 E-2C?
18 E-3
19 F14A
20 F18CDEF, AV8B - split CD/EF!
21 Gepard, M1992/Zsu23-4, OSaII,
22 F22 F35 Rafale? should split
23 all F-4Es and -G?
24 F-5A F-5E and RF-5E > split
25 US ship serach radar
26 =no use
27 AN/MPQ46 hawk
28 Nike radar
29 F104, J6 mig17/mig19 ?
30 J7B/J7E/J7PG, J8B > split
31 su7 su9 ?
32 33 34 35 36 =no use
37 patriot SAM radar
38 =no use
39 SA-2 fan song radar+microwave 2
40 SA3 low bow + shahine
41 long track
42 barlock B + EW radar
43 SA6 straight flush
44 SA-8 and rapier
45 SA9
46 SA10 flap lid. tombstone radar/ship grumble sAM - should split
47 SA13
48 mig29A/G, F16 aggressor,
49 =no use
50 SU-15
51 =no use
52 SA-15
53 ship search radar
54 55 =no use
56 kiev neustrashymyy
57 ulsan, wildcat and fast boat
58 all F-111s and F105, should split
59 tu16
60 =no use
61 KS12, KS19, S60AAA
62 all F-15CDEJ
63 =no use
64 J11 Su27 SU27UB
65 mig29M mig33 mig29S
66 67 68 69 =no use
70 mig35 su37
71 F4D, F4N, RF4C
72 F4K. F4M. JH-7?
73 F-8E
74 K-8 ? K-8 has no radar
75 mirage F1
76 F-105F/G, RA-5C. RF101c ?
77 mireage 2000 C D N -5 -9. should split
78 =no use
79 su-24M
80 A-6E A7E/D
81 B-1B
82 B-2A
83 EA-6B
84 F-14B
85 F-14D
86 F-15A
87 F-16A/B
88 =no use
89 F-18AB. CF-18A
90 E-8C
91 su-17M4
92 su30M/Mkk, su32 su33, su35, better split
93 tu22M
94 tu96MS
95 tu160
96 mireageIIIC/E
97 SA17 snowdrift
98 =no use
99 F-4B/C/F
100 F-4J/S
101 =no use
102 seaharrier FA2
103 - 119 =no use
120 roland-mardar SAM
121 crotale radar
122 crotale NG radar
123-133 =no use
134 chinese and USSR carrier radar
135 billboard and high screen SA-12. should split
136-139 =no use
140 super etandard
141 =no use
142 JA-37
143-151 =no use
152 EF2000
153-158 =no use
159 tornado ADV/IDS should split
160 JAS39A
-
- Colonel
- Posts: 344
- Joined: 2007-01-13 07:59:02
- Gaming Interests: Falcon 4.0
- Editing Interests: Modeling
- Location: Hungary
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
I agree, I don't understand why so many vehicles use the same radar data. This is also true for IR missiles concerning on IR sensor data. As I see nothing prevents creating new records. I have created new IR sensors, new radars, and new HP records. They worked perfectly.
Maybe. If we split and create new entries we can fill the holes.it seems the radar edits could be a huge task for any DB editor.
Core 2 Duo E7300, Gigabyte EP43, 4 GB RAM (1066MHz), Shappire Radeon HD4850 1GB
-
- Chief of Staff
- Posts: 4857
- Joined: 2000-08-06 22:01:01
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
hehe.. the workload is beyond my scope.molnibalage wrote:I agree, I don't understand why so many vehicles use the same radar data. This is also true for IR missiles concerning on IR sensor data. As I see nothing prevents creating new records. I have created new IR sensors, new radars, and new HP records. They worked perfectly.
Maybe. If we split and create new entries we can fill the holes.it seems the radar edits could be a huge task for any DB editor.
anyway- check pm.. hope it help your work.
-
- Chief of Staff
- Posts: 4857
- Joined: 2000-08-06 22:01:01
Re: [ F4Browse DB talk ] - Radar Data
Code: Select all
[b]RP-21 Sapfir/ Spin scan radar for Mig21P/PF[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP_21_Sapfir_Spin_Scan-A
It was in theory able to detect fighter-sized targets from a range of 20 km, and lock on to them at a range of 10 km, though in practice this got reduced to 13 km and 7 km respectively.
the radar field was limited to 20° vertically and 60° horizontally.
Code: Select all
[b]Jaybird radar for mig21J/MF/bis or Mig23E[/b]
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Avionics/Jay-Bird-Radar-Russia-and-the-CIS.html
peak power is estimated at 100 kW and the radar has a 3.5 × 3.5º beamwidth.
There is reported to be no pulse compression facility and suggested search and tracking ranges are perhaps 16 nm (30 km) and 10 nm (20 km) respectively. The acquisition range against typical targets is said to be less than 20 nm (35 km) and the system is believed to have no true look-down capability.
now this page is more detailed..
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=25.0
Radar max. scan limits in azimuth: ±52º
Radar max. scan limits in elevation: +43º, -38º
Antenna scan coverage in azimuth: ±30º
Antenna scan coverage in elevation: 8.5º to 12º
Scan cycle: 3.5sec
Pulse width: 4 or 1 µsec
PRF: ~1KHz
Peak power of impulse transmitter: 70kW
Power output of KNP transmitter: 270W
Time to ready: 6min
Antenna gyro-stabilization
Pitch 30/-35º
Roll 70/-70º
Radar self check time: max. 100s
Target altitude: 40-25000m
Target speed: up to 2500km/h. 2.35M
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests