EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Terrain / Theater editing

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EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-07 08:27:30

In our theaters page there is EAfrica theater by T_Rex.
EAfrica by T-Rex
In late February and early March of 1999, Ethiopian Su-27s engaged Eritrean MiG-29s. By the end of the war, 5 MiG's had been lost to the SUs in close-quarters dogfights. This war began in 1997 and involved up to 300,000 troops fighting from trenches and fortifications more reminiscent of World War I than any "modern" war. The MiG v. Su marked the only known time that former Soviet front-line fighters have engaged each other in a shooting war. It also marked one of the rare A-A battles in the Ethiopian/Eritrean war. Peace was negotiated in 2001. (This theater is underdevelopment primarily as a testbed for CATE.)
I'm arrogantly just assuming that this theater is completely halted and nothing has been done in months/years. However, is the above quote a correct set of facts at the moment or what is the latest status?

T_Rex, do you still have the any of the files available?

I know we have more than many theaters available and under work, but to me its sort of shame that we have partial theaters in the theaters page. I could bring this EAfrica theater to playbale Libya/Kurile/Georgia level in no time (I think), or would it be just easier to sweep it under the rug just deleting whole entry from the teaters list page? :o
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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by ccc » 2009-05-07 09:34:45

if you don't mind.. please do it - i like it.

BTW - T-Rex may still have files for Cuba :mrgreen:

and, bear with me - i'd like to have a copy of FF4/RV compatible PANAMA installer. just want to check Canal area and test how ground war develop in that area.

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by T_Rex » 2009-05-07 12:41:26

LOL

Those files haven't been touched in years. I can look in my archive CDs to find the files, but really, it seems like it would take less time to just start over with it. :) I don't mind if you want to take it down, or I can help figure out how to move forward if you want. I'd been planning on using the ODS tiles for it, so now that ODS is more developed (or Israel tiles, too) that might work.

And actually, that area remains in a "simmering" peace.

As for Cuba, I have a whole DVD from Basil, but had some trouble getting the old installers to work right - even manually extracting them didn't help. The tiles would be the most valuable part of that. I know I have that stuff.
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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by toonces » 2009-05-07 12:57:42

Hi guys.

There was a very interesting conflict called the Ogaden War that took place in that region.

If you're going to rebuild the theater, you might want to consider including this area as it looked like an interesting conflict in which to use some older jets and alot of the mods ccc has worked on.

I know you hate links SM, but I found the best information at the ACIG.org website: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_188.shtml

It also has alot of neat skin templates.

If you were going to model the conflict, I would suggest we look at one of the few offensive periods- a campaign of 7-14 days highlighting one of the major actions.

I actually went as far as combing through the library at the Naval Postgraduate School for a few days, collecting info for the conflict- there's not alot of info out there though.

This might be a great idea to take some of the ideas we've been looking at to the next level- building a theater from the ground up using TCL to grab units from the right databases, making a terrain largely devoid of rivers, a few major roads, minimum of objectives, and then build up the ground war based on the available OOBs.

Let me know if you want any help.

Somewhere, a long time ago, I posted a .tri file where I started exploring replicating this war in the Nevada campaign. I just got too sidetracked with other ideas to pursue it too far. I mean, it wouldn't have any F-16s to fly, that's for sure.

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-07 13:35:25

So you guys seem to favor this theater. Well then, off we go (again) :roll:

What "war" is it that we would be representing in this theater?

So what would be the name of the theater?

What would be the center coordinates for the theater in spherical (dem2terrain) DEM data?

Would it be 64 segment or 128 segment theater?
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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by T_Rex » 2009-05-07 13:53:31

Snake Man wrote:So you guys seem to favor this theater. Well then, off we go (again) :roll:
hehe

Everything old is new again....
What "war" is it that we would be representing in this theater?
This is the war I was thinking of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrean-Ethiopian_War
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ritrea.htm
So what would be the name of the theater?
East Africa Theater?
What would be the center coordinates for the theater in spherical (dem2terrain) DEM data?
Sry - can't remember.
Would it be 64 segment or 128 segment theater?
I recall the original area would fit on 64. But, if you increased to 128, you could probably include a big chunk of the Sudan (humanitarian mission possibilities there), and Somalia (the Ogadan Insurrection).
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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by toonces » 2009-05-07 13:59:50

SM, here's my idea:

Battle of Harer

The Somalis were fast to realize that the time was now not on their side any more. Counting on bad weather to keep the EtAF on the ground, on 28 November they staged their last offensive against Harer, while simultaneously attempting an advance down the road towards Alem Maya. However, by this time the first Cuban units were deployed in the area as well, together with several BM-21-batteries. They proved decisive: the Somali attack failed at great cost.

The fighting died down, with both sides digging in and scrambling to reinforce available units: even if Somalia was subsequently capable of securing some small amount of US and Egyptian support, the Soviet airbridge was continued and soon enough it was clear who was to win the race.

Despite reports about Somalis activating all their reservists, and - reportedly - also contracting 20 Pakistani pilots and some other foreign and domestic personnel to bring the SAC back into fighting condition, in late 1977 and early 1978 their air force actually cased operations over the Ogaden. This enabled the EtAF to unleash its full fighting capability against Somali troops inside Ethiopia.

On 8 January 1978, after a series of air strikes by F-5As, MiG-21s, and MiG-23BNs against Somali positions and also the air base at Hargeisa, an Ethiopian division - bolstered by Cuban armor and led by Soviet General Petrov - approached Somali positions around Harer. These were first put under constant artillery- and air-bombardments, and then stormed by 120 T-54 and T-62 tanks. The Somali defeat at Harer was complete: according to unconfirmed contemporary reports, one of their brigades was completely destroyed, losing possibly up to 3.000 men killed in that battle alone.

With the loss of Harer, the whole Somali position in Ogaden was actually outflanked: the Somalis were forced to retreat to Jijiga and Dible, the last important crossroads in the area, or else risk being cut off from their major supply bases. The rest of Ogaden had only very poor road communications: the remaining Somali and WSLF units were scattered and heavily depending on supply lines running from Hargheisa. Once these came under a direct threat they began a withdrawal towards the border. This withdrawal swiftly turned into a rout, with Cubans and Ethiopians racing to reach the Somali border before the remnants of three Somali brigades could do so.

Recognizing the threat of such a force for other local countries, Western powers scrambled to move their units into this part of the world, and the situation became so tense that the French deployed their aircraft carrier Clemanceau off the coast of Djibouti, in order to be in position to repel any eventual attack on their colony.


Image

I tried pulling the map up on Yahoo and google, but I don't get lat/long info which is what you need.

I'd make the theater just big enough to capture Gode to the south and what's on this map. And, in fact, I'd clip Gode and just use this map if we think it might keep the campaign map small enough. I say this because I think the best reason for creating a new theater :roll: is to test out some of these ideas we've been experimenting with on a smaller scale.

There probably aren't more than 50 objectives on that whole map. There are 4 or 5 main axes of advance. Only a couple of major cities and airfields. We can build the theater from the ground up to only encompass these few things, add a bunch of ground and air forces based on the OOB at that link I posted, then see what happens when the campaign engine has a smaller amount of data to digest.

Hopefully the campaign would be fun, but more than that, it would give us additional insights into what the campaign engine is doing.

Before tackling something like ODS (or Nevada, which technically is very large), it would be nice to have a small sandbox to play in to test out these ideas we're exploring. Smaller means less terrain to fix, less roads to fix, less objectives to confuse the campaign engine, less units to place, and so on.

Anyway, this is just an idea, and it's sort of out of the scope of your original question about T-Rex's campaign. I don't want to hijack, but I've been sitting on this idea since last year, and since you brought it up...

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by toonces » 2009-05-07 14:11:46

Looking at a yahoo map, from Dire Dawa to Hargeysa is about 100-120 miles. So, if you centered on Hargeysa and then make it the smallest size that was at least 120 miles radius from Hargeysa, you'd get Dire Dawa to the west and Berbera to the northeast. I'm not sure how you convert from 64 segment to miles, I know you've told me, I just can't remember.

EDIT: the Lat/Long of Hargeysa is 9.5833 / 44.0677
I tried doing that DEM thing on the page, but I can't get it to zoom in enough. However, it looks like using +/- 3.0 on Lat and +/- 3 on Long will encompass the right area.

In a previous post about segments, you said you could go as small as 8x8 segments. I have no idea how many miles this is though. How would 8x8 compare to the region I posted above, which ought to be something on the order of 360 miles per side, or 360x360nm (I think 1 degree of Lat is equal to 60nm)?
Last edited by toonces on 2009-05-07 15:10:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by toonces » 2009-05-07 14:23:43

A few more thoughts. I'm having like 3 simultaneous conversations here that blend together.

Re-reading ccc's comments on tiles and roads, first and foremost, we need to use a working tileset for a new theater. If the ODS tiles work, that would be perfect IMO.

Second, after we get the terrain built, we need to erase most of the roads except the main fighting routes. Again, the idea is to keep things as simple as possible.

If you get the terrain built with working tiles and a working road network, we can TCL the units in. I will build a spreadsheet of ground forces and we can figure out how to TCL them in together. Make sure TCL is placing the units on terrain that will allow them to move, and associating them with an objective so they don't go into permanent reserve.

We can make the PAK map small- say 3 Pri-81+ cities per side (Ethiopia vs Somalia).

Both the Soviets and US sent reinforcements to the two countries. We can experiment with reinforcements in this theater. Around day 3, when the campaign engine always seems to stall, give both sides a nice injection of reinforcements.


EDIT: @SM, if you make another 128 segment theater, we're going to end up where we are with every other theater. IMHO, we simply have to start smaller and hammer out the principles of a working ground war before we make another big theater. The major showstopper, again IMHO, to working campaigns is that there is just too much to check and QA. If we can get one small theater to use as a test-bed, it sure would make life easier...for me at least.

I know I'm sidetracking this discussion, and I apologize for that, but I just can't see trying to tackle something that covers half of East Africa for a working ground war when we already have so many to work on. I'd really like to have something small to work on first, test out all these ideas I have about garrisons and force levels, border objective attributes, and so on.

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by toonces » 2009-07-04 13:44:05

SM,
I wanted to bump this up again. I tried creating this map a while back, and sort of imported everything from the NOAA website, but it never did work properly.

I would really love it if you can get the terrain built, using the ODS tileset. This is an elegant little setup that is well-suited to FF5, and also for experimenting with campaign creation.

All of the things I pointed out above are still true- low object density, few linkages, low terrain complexity (no mountains, primarily desert terrain), and an interesting planeset. In fact, when the FF5 DB is unlocked, we can experiment with adding some of ccc's projects into it.

I think I got the terrain semi-built in a few hours, you could probably do it over a few beers while watching the Simpsons.

What do you think?

I'll do all the legwork on this one- I just need the terrain built. :)

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by toonces » 2009-07-04 13:50:40

This was as far as I got with the Ogaden terrain:


Image

[I think this is the image, I can't open it at work]

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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by Snake Man » 2009-07-04 16:50:13

Yes I can do that, but not tonight. Come to IRC and remind me about it.
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Re: EAfrica theater by T_rex, what to do?

Post by ccc » 2009-11-06 12:30:20

It seems Saudi Arab-Yemen border is getting hot lately.. Saudi fighters bomb infiltrators!!

Published on -11/6/2009, 2:49 AM
http://www.hdnews.net/apnationstory/a04 ... 11-06-0931

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