Creating 512 res tiles

[Snake Man]

First posted by kinggeorge:

quote:OK In case someone is interested this is how i make 512 textures using sat images - help woul dbe nice considering th eamount of textures needed...

1st get in the newnet theater irc channel #falcon4theaters

Here's how i did the texture stuff so far:

- Get decent sat image (we have afew no i guess) scale it to the correct resolution 2pixel=1meter (look at cars, roads...) -adjust the red/blue/green gamma settings and saturation/hue if needed

- Select an area for the generic/ F /all directions texture cut/copy it(not scaling) to the 512x512 size

- manual make the texture objects evenly distributed by copying small irregular parts around / filter any rough borders

-with photoshop filter offset it 20 or more pixels and make the borders dissappear by filtering/soften/blur or copying small irregular parts over the border

- first tile done -save it in true color pcx

-for testing reduce color to 256, name it after a generic existing tile replacing all T,M,H,L* ones

- Now do either the 16 river or 16 road tiles (see texture tutorial about the texture structure from *1 to *F)

-select the generic tile as basis copy a road/crossing from your sat pic into it making it fit on the border (use a grid or so and finally choose the offset filter for 3-5 pixes and make the last adjustments, begin with the f tile (roads from all directions and a crossing in the middle).
Take this tile then as reference for the correct borders

- place a few objects on crossings for diversity, since those tiles wont get repeated nearby normally - be sure to keep the tile borders the same as the generic one always.

- when all are done copy all of them in a huge 2048x2048 pic and save the paletta. Edit the paletta change color 253 to 256 to white for instance (n8 lighting) - save the paletta!

- open your 16/17 tiles individually - for each one decrease colors to 256 and open(=apply) the saved paletta in the pic. Save the pic as alway sin the pcx format(should be around 300KB with 256 colors)

-Check correct/good file names -test them by replacing existing ones or send them to the theater makers/snakeman

DONE!

Please do continue discussion about creating new texture / tiles with 512 resolution.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[kinggeorge]

EDIT: RESOLUTION FOR 512x512 pixel is 2 meter per 1 PIXEL! not vice versa i suggested in the text above (at 3am

ccc normally gfx in f4 dont really affect the problematic fps... If your rig can handle a campaign than it can handle bigger textures too. Anything from a TnT2 16MB on will handle textures theoretically as large as 2048 but 512 with ease if im not mistaken. Didnt T-rex do Afghanistan? He's got a 433 Celeron...

Anyway in the Sp2 days we measured the time consumed in the various threads of f4 (gfx, cmapign, bubble etc...) I think the gfx thread time was way way lower than the one handling stuff inside your bubble... Of course it depends on the settings and the system but frankly when comparing to other games from the last 2 years F4's texture resolution seems way outdated...

[87th_striker]

What about the DEM resolution ? Now we got one 1 km, but we can easily change that to 100 meter, or 250 meter, or whatever we want, while maintaining realistic looks. What impact will another DEM resolution have on the way we create new tiles, and the size of the tiles ?

I guess with better tiles, and hig res DEM's we can produce waving sand dunes in ODS, and more complex realistic hill- and mountain terrain. I would think it would increase the feeling of speed when flying low.

[kinggeorge]

Yes decreasing the tile size would be a big advance imo - thats why I keep asking Wids for his theater .
the texture afaik will always be the size of the tile so the resolution will increase.

A 250m tile with 512 textures would mean a resolution of 0.5meter per pixel - the same as 2048 texture on standart tile...

We cant just decrease the existing textures down or use them 1:1 since the scale is not correct then: in 512 res a road of 4 pixels is 8meters on a 1km tile - on a 250m it would be just 2 meters big...

Pros:
-More realistic landscape - canyons, valleys and other terrain features much better to model.
- Increased resolution and increased sense of speed.
- Borders may look better an more irregular

Cons:
-New textures needed, or editning of existing to by cutting them and realigning them
-Terrain may look even more repetitive
-More different textures needed

[87th_striker]

So the conclusion seems to be... Let's decide on a new standard ?

For the standard we need a proposal to discuss.

King George, Widowmaker, Snake Man and others.., let's hear the pros and cons seen from your side ?

Also a suggestion for standard would be interesting.

[Widowmaker]

Well every theater can have its own standard.

Korea and Balkans will keep Voodoo users in mind and provide a 256 res version at most
this has been decided by UT in order to keep everyone happy. However a Hires package may or may not be included as optional.

For the rest I suggest the tilemaker decides wich res it is, preferable somwhere between 256-512.
Higher is possible but will inevitably result in framrate loss depending on diversity of the terrain, and vidcard mem.

So basically a standard is not required for all theaters, but tilemakers are and they basically decide wich res they use individually)
we just have to write in the readme if old voodoo owners can or cannot use it.

/widmak

[Widowmaker]

quote:Originally posted by kinggeorge:

-New textures needed, or editning of existing to by cutting them and realigning them
-Terrain may look even more repetitive
-More different textures needed

hmm I now use 250 meter and 256 pixels
and already have a significant fps hit.
also making tiles this size is a bitch and not someting I reccomend todo

so smaller tiles have more disadvantages then pro's.
best would be that the texturegrid and heightgrid would be separted from eachother
but exe editing has stopped. so..

the advantage is that the terrain is a smoother too (also at the expense of FPS)

when I finnish I expect minimum pc requiremnet to be something like 1.5 Ghz to be able to play it at medium settins at 1600*1200-32bit. so I am not in a hurry .

as a fps test you can use dgft theater
increase tiles by 2 in res and see what happens to your system

/widmak

[87th_striker]

I guess I've mentioned this some time before...., but to create good theaters faster, standards for the future would be positive. I still think that drawing tiles from a common "tile-bank" would enable us to reach that goal. Not so many people are in this business, so a unified effort like Snamke Mans and others, are therefor very welcome.

[ccc]

i prefer 256 tiles. plus few addon 512 tiles for featured site like airbase/SAM site/port, etc.

since guys at LE are adding more new 3d toys, you'll find models use more textures(even in 256 format), or upgrade to larger texture(i.e. from 64 or 128 to 256 bmp). plux more complex models and detailed building/airbases.. guess UT guys haven't got a chance to test FPS from the combinaton of all goodies..

[kinggeorge]

Considering the whole graphic engine was -except for special effects/explosions - nearly irrelevant to the lowest fps numbers and considering the advances in technology compared to the time it takes to develope textures i'll take the risk of 512 only
I'd go so far to immagine trying 1024 textures for "hot spots" in the future...

[kinggeorge]

How did I make a tileset of a generic tile and then with all the roads (17 tiles, 2 straights, 4 curves, 4 3-way crossing, one 4 way and one generic tile)

Irc extract:

KG> i always use the generic tile as basis
<KG> so there is also no transition between the generic tile land and the road tile
<KG> to tell the truth the order mostly is:
<KG> - create generic tile make it "boring"
<KG> - create 4 way road add some unobtrusive features (small trees rocks for example)
<KG> - create 3 way crossings with lots of features (houses etc)
<KG> using 4 way as template
<KG> make a new template deleting road but keeping 3-4 pixel long road on the borders
<KG> - create curves from it (north to west road for example) delete the 3-4 pixel road ends not used

<Showtime> so that's gonna be the generic tile then?
<KG> no the generic tile is already made
<Showtime> ehh srry thought you were already done
<rom> gotta use the offset filter often for the generic tile
<KG> no just once
<rom> and after you added the roads?
<KG> once it is made "boring" do the offest and make the borders disspear

<KG> no using the generic already "compatible" tile as template i dont have to
<rom> so you use the offset filter on your road alone?
<KG> yes for the "f" tile (north south west east road) i make the road start from one end (north east for example here) but go only 3/4 of the tile to the south and the west and insert a nice crossing from a sat pic
<KG> then i do a offset with just 3-4 pixels so i see where the road ends
on the other boarders (offset in north east direction here in this example)
<rom> ah, k. Otherwise you would see a seam on the road
<KG> then i connect the road by rotating/mirroring road parts of the sat pic
<KG> done
<KG> often the road copied into the generic tile background needs some filtering at the seam on the side of the road - i hav ealso multiple road parts in the background that i keep rotating and mirroring as selection in the texture etc
<Showtime> rgr that! thanks for explaining!
<KG> also copying multiple parts of the roads needs some filtering
<KG> but keep the filtering at a minimum

[kinggeorge]

AS for river tiles with all the transitions of the river from all directions (16 like roads) I'm hoping for a tool for now that does the most work.

Sat pics are needed nevertheless and i encourage everyone to discuss about the look of a river from above. Sat pics show water pretty strange and indeed water may look different from each angle. I've seen totally brown green and black rivers for now in sat pics... What should it look like?

[kinggeorge]

thx ComGP for this fantastic link
http://www.larioja.org/sig/ctop.html

Tons of sat pics of the whole bask country in ! 2meter /pixel ! res

I think they could be used for tiles for many theaters - later on for europe, also balkans and whatever roughly fits

[Com_gp]

Hey KG,
If you liked that URL, check this other one, its in spanish and is not as simple as the other one to download pics, basicly click in "Visualizacion y Descargas" and then "Ortofotos".
Then click in any of the blue boxes after clicking the button with an arrow.
There is about 500 HIGH quality Ortophotos.

http://www.alava.net/cartografia/

Hope you understand, here is two examples, btw, the quality is awesome, although the colours are not right, they are weird, maybe it can be solved playing with contrast and brigthness.

FarmLand and City (1.3mb):
http://194.30.32.127/cartografia/AlavaD ... g/6-52.JPG

Forrest and farmland: http://194.30.32.127/cartografia/AlavaD ... g/14-1.JPG

If you wanna see more of this pictures you also can change the last numbers of the address, i mean, instead 14-1 put something like 5-14, it works.

Ahh!, and about that river tool, thats no problem, but you maybe have to wait a little bit, im too bussy right now to program.

Com_GP

[kinggeorge]

Thanks again! Yes the colors are a little off - but as I explained and you suggested the first thing is to adjust the 3 main colors gamma settings, the hue and the saturation of the sat pic before making the tiles

I would especially like to see someone else doing european 512 textures from these links

[twaelti]

I think for the moment 256 res tiles are well enough to update the generic landscape tiles - for me, 512res seems to be overkill in most situations. It only makes sense in places where you spend lots of time close to the ground. It's the same with highres plane skins: a lot of work only for the moments when you stand in front of another plane or when you look at it from outside and close in very much. It's only for showing off...
In addition, one simple keyword: Bandwidth...
KG uses his university account, PMC's is paid by other obscure sources A full set of 512res tiles would be HUGE.
(E.g. My beta release two weeks ago already generated 20 GB of traffic)

BTW/OT: where did the other messages of this thread go???

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by tom2:
I think for the moment 256 res tiles are well enough to update the generic landscape tiles

True this can be done with 3 digit change on the runtiles.bat file.

Btw I'm thinking about installer which comes only with H tiles and rest of the stuff is created locally when user is installing the theater/tiles.

quote:BTW/OT: where did the other messages of this thread go???

I think there are two tile-related topics here going on. This whole issue started from the theater development help so thats kind of third

Btw is there ANY chance we could lure you into editing some ODS tiles or is your Korea tile making on high priority?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[kinggeorge]

quote:Originally posted by tom2:
I think for the moment 256 res tiles are well enough to update the generic landscape tiles - for me, 512res seems to be overkill in most situations.

Yes i would also say that for updating the korean ones (to be used for many countrys) 256 is a good choice. i think 512 would even make it look a bit strange next to 128 tiles. And the information is still 4 times the original.
However I chose to do new ones in 512 only as I consider it a fair leap from 5 year old 128's...
As for bandwidth maybe just very few want my 512 tiles anyway so no problem there I doubt i'll do 1000 512 tiles - realistically having like 300 with automated tools would mean 70MB still smaller than Superpak - and I swear - a 14.4 guy will download it faster than i made em

[kinggeorge]

Another irc extract that might be useful or maybe also complete BS - at least it shows we're talking blabla in irc all day long
<KG> but actually the green fields are from a iran/iraq sat pics
<KG> furthermore it looked a bit too regular to me
<KG> very "uninteresting" imo
<KG> so i tweaked it a bit
<KG> http://wuw.stusta.mhn.de/~u001907a/stat ... _28_04.jpg
<KG> no it looks more repetitive but less boring
<KG> the trick is
<KG> you may add diversity and different colors
<KG> but the contrast/brightness should be as regular as possible
<KG> what i do to look if there are any bright or dark spots that make it look weird
<KG> is that i zoom out and make the pic on the screen very small (2x2cm or less) - you will soon see if there are irregular spots
<KG> then i will copy paste parts and filter borders to make the spot dissapear when zooming out
<KG> another "trick" i used is to watch at it without my glasses - or by almost closing my eyes - so that the pic appears blurred and you can better see the dark/bright spots
----

long blabla - here's what i was talking about in a pic:
generic tile creation

[MerlinM]

quote:Originally posted by kinggeorge:
I would especially like to see someone else doing european 512 textures from these links

Lets see - alone all the textures are hardcore but in small groupe its makeable, please can you contact me via icq ? 5042315

[kinggeorge]

HEy Merlin! Thx for the offer. Currently all the texture "painters" are busy with finishing ods 512 textures. Europe would be on my wish list as next theater. But before we don't have a finished 512 ODS version that works well i dont recommend to start on another theater except for collecting sat pics with the required resolution. All those interested don't forget to check in on irc!!!

[Ami]

KG, the arid agriculture is finished. Codec has a copy. They need to be renamed and possibly the night version done. I´ll be needing some help with the night versions.
Mark

[MerlinM]

have some problems connecting the irc.newnet.net network - other ircs NW are working - any idea ?

======== UPDATE =======
Ok i am in *g*

[87th_striker]

For runway tiles..... http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/qb/d ... 003_DG.jpg

Check lower right....

[kinggeorge]

quote:Originally posted by MerlinM:
have some problems connecting the irc.newnet.net network - other ircs NW are working - any idea ?

======== UPDATE =======
Ok i am in *g*

Yes increase the time interval after which of mirc retries to etablish the connection - its somewhere in the options - connection retry delay or so...

[kinggeorge]

quote:Originally posted by Ami:
KG, the arid agriculture is finished. Codec has a copy. They need to be renamed and possibly the night version done. I´ll be needing some help with the night versions.
Mark

For the n8 lighting i know as much as you It is described in the tutorial:

quote: Color Palette in default tile has colors 252 - 255 for city night lightning effect. For example you use normal daytime colors for the 252-255 color indexes, sprinkle these colors along the tile where you want the night lighting to show up, then at night time they will be shown as these values:
position 252 will turn to colour 115,171,155 (RGB values)
position 253 will turn to colour 183,127,183 (RGB values)
position 254 will turn to colour 171,179,139 (RGB values)
position 255 will turn to colour 171,171,171 (RGB values)

My idea is to choose those last palette slots four colors that dont differ much from the colors in the spots where one would set some of the n8 lightning pixels. Then pick those colors and add pixel here and there without "disturbing" the picture. But the tile can be tested only in f4... So n8 lightning is done at the very end only.
Maybe Tom Wälti can give us more insight there

252 is blue green
253 is violett
254 is yellow grey
255 is white

[twaelti]

quote:Originally posted by kinggeorge:
So n8 lightning is done at the very end only.

Correct. A nice tool is www.saintpaint.com - it allows pallete exclusion, which is very valuable as it remaps a selected palette color to the nearest available color. This way you can eliminate all "unwanted" colors (252-255) from the pic, then re-use these as night lights.

[Joker621]

Please,
how can I create L,M,T tiles for 512x512 or 256x256 res?
Must I use runtiles? or other?
For 512x512 image, what's size of L,M,T tiles?
thank in advance.
regards.

[kinggeorge]

yes runtiles - but a special version - need to get in irc and ask snakeman

we tried 256 and 128 afaik - works well
Also 128 (M) and 64(L) works ok

[Bird-FF]

Bump it up!

[Peled]

quote:Originally posted by kinggeorge:
yes runtiles - but a special version - need to get in irc and ask snakeman

And Where is That Version of RunTiles Today ?...The "Special One " .....

[87th_striker]

Check private message, Peled.

[Bird-FF]

Hey, what about me.. I'm doing those tiles.. hehe.. Can some one send that special proggie to me as well..

[Bird-FF]

quote:Originally posted by kinggeorge:
AS for river tiles with all the transitions of the river from all directions (16 like roads) I'm hoping for a tool for now that does the most work.

And where is this?..

[ranger822]

Bump on both Birds' and Peled's. How about a yousendit.com link for the programs please.

Eyran and Jay - - why not post your "special" stuff over at F4ITDG files section?

[Sherlock]

Where may I get these two "special" programs for a theater I would like to create? Thanks!

[Zaggy]

There was an app like that written a VERY long time ago, that did that, built on the Photoshop 7.0 and SDK libraries. Could build and namethe textures in seconds, from supplied Generic Tiles..

[Sherlock]

Peled, et al,
did any of you ever track down either of the proggies mentioned above? If so, can I get a copy please? PM me for my email...

[Peled]

No , sorry Sherlock , i have never got it....

[Sherlock]

ok, thanks anyway!