An idea for the current Korean terrain

[Talon]

First off, hi guys! Don't freak out on me. I come in peace! Just plain ole Chuck here. User of SP3 and RP5. I'm not here representing RPG or any other group. I'm here as a Falconeer with what I think is a neat idea for the current Korean terrain, but lack the skills and know-how to do it myself.

I spoke with Widowmaker earlier today on ICQ and he suggested I present the idea here to see if someone can help.

Here we go. The current Korean theater is a bit small (64x64 I think. Correct me if I'm wrong)and as such does not include some important allied bases. In particular Misawa in nothern Japan, Okinawa just south of Japan, and Guam a little further to the south and a bit east... I'd like to add these bases to the current terrain, but not expand the map to 128x128. What I'd like to do is simply add three small islands (just big enough to place the airbase and air defence units on) representing these bases near the edges of the current map off the bearings where they are. Place a properly named airfield on each one. Such as one near the northeast for Misawa (coordinates 1000/850) and two near the southeast for Okinawa (750/20) and Guam (725/20). Or something along those lines. Follow me so far? Is it a good idea worth pursuing??? Anyone willing to help? It has some cool prospects for new campaign ideas Like a REAL order of battle Korean conflict. Much more realistic in units and numbers than anything currently available. Also this would make it usable by both SP3 and RP5 users. As it is only a mod of the existing terrain.
Just try and pretend it wasn't me who sent this and think about the idea Saints 2005 campaign and Scoobs for i2 could benefit greatly from something like this IMO!

-Chuck 'Talon' Gray-
Affiliated with no one while on this board. Just a simple Falconeer

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by Chuck G:
First off, hi guys! Don't freak out on me. I come in peace!

Welcome aboard Chuck G!

quote:I'd like to add these bases to the current terrain, but not expand the map to 128x128. What I'd like to do is simply add three small islands

Can do, no problems.

quote:Such as one near the northeast for Misawa (coordinates 1000/850) and two near the southeast for Okinawa (750/20) and Guam (725/20).

Widowmaker and I can mop up such "theater" for you in no time.

quote:Is it a good idea worth pursuing???

Sounds good to me, altough bit bending the realism by adding stuff such way... we did the same on ODS while adding King Abdulaziz and Taif airbases just in the southern edge of the map even they are located far more south in real life.

quote:Anyone willing to help?

I can do it. just give me more detailed info; airbase coordinates in the current korea terrain (ocean that is) and the airbase types (runway orientations). It should take no time to add them.

quote:Like a REAL order of battle Korean conflict. Much more realistic in units and numbers than anything currently available.

While you're at it, let us know about the squadrons based on each airbase (squadron numbers too) and possible air defenses for the bases.

quote:Also this would make it usable by both SP3 and RP5 users. As it is only a mod of the existing terrain.

Well yeah if used 2 byte terrain.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Talon]

quote:What has happened before and other forums is no business of PMC forum. We are very low interest forum of highly geeky tech talk so maybe that has been the main reason this being so boring and at the same time - politics free. We will continue to be geeky, trust me

Cool! Thank you.

quote:I can do it. just give me more detailed info; airbase coordinates in the current korea terrain (ocean that is) and the airbase types (runway orientations). It should take no time to add them.

Well for Misawa I would recommend a N/S oriented runway if the base is to be near the east edge of the map. This way the AI won't have any issues getting too near the edge. An E/W oriented runway base at each of the islands in the south for Okinawa and Guam would be appropriate. I gave suggested coordinates for each in my first post, but here they are again; "Misawa (coordinates 1000/850) and two near the southeast for Okinawa (750/20) and Guam (725/20)" These are just suggested coordinates for them. You may need to move them further from the map edge. I'm not sure. You guys are the experts on that I assume this is how i2 terrain is (2byte) and that SP uses something higher than this? Can the terrain be made compatible to both default installs without much effort? I'm in two squads. One uses SP3 and the other uses i2...
It would be cool if we could use it in each when all is said and done....

Thank you for jumping on this idea! This has been something I've wanted to do for a while!

-Chuck

[Snake Man]

(moved the topic here, Korea)

quote:Originally posted by Chuck G:
if the base is to be near the east edge of the map. This way the AI won't have any issues getting too near the edge.

We can have it pretty close to the edge and they still perform pretty well. At least they did in my TE tests at ODS Taif airbase.

quote:That's where you lost me I assume this is how i2 terrain is (2byte) and that SP uses something higher than this?

Yes SP3 is modified L2 and uses 4 byte.

quote:Can the terrain be made compatible to both default installs without much effort?

Yeah just take original 2 byte L2 and edit that, then keep it 2 byte.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Red Dog]

I'm also all for it.
I can't wait for the real work to start on EKT as I have plenty of similar project.

Placing MISAWA, GUAM and OKINAWA on the edges of the map is a good idea. The trick would be to delete the actual Kadena AB and replace it correctly on OKINAWA where it belongs. The current Kadena airbase may then be replaced at the exact spot with the real JASDF airbase named FUKUOKA

I would, on the other hand, wait before seeing if any of Chris work on increasing the runway lenght is working and applicable on EKT so that we can model the new airbases as close as possible to the real ones.

Placing the "new" airbase in their correct bearing may also be a problem because ANDERSEN and YOKOTA are in the South East corner of the MAP, right where Japan now is.

Kadena would not be a problem and MISAWA is much farther North on the East side, so should be okay too. Albeit a little lost

My general feeling would be to increase the terrain size South and East to make it more realistic.

I'll post a small image of what I think later....

Cheers
RD

[Red Dog]

Here is the image I was speaking about:



Here are the remarks:

1. On the (average) correct bearing, MISAWA would be too close to North Korean Shores.

2. ANDERSEN and YOKOTA would be impossible to place because we would place them all above Japan

3. KADENA would be much too close to the south coast of Korea.
Bear also in mind that project also exists to add some other airbase in Korea such as Inchon INTL and most particulary for our case CHEJU, wich is exactly on the real Kadena bearing displayed here but on a southern island called CHEJU-DO.
For Kadena, we could cheat a little and place the bearing more westward where we have room.

Still, it would be great to increase the terrain size to the south and the east so that we can support all those interesting airbase without too many entorse to reality.
Of course, we don't need to go as far as Guam, We could implement Chuck's idea on the bearings but I feel we need to be a little farther than what we have at our disposal at the moment.

Cheers
RD

[codec]

Just as a what if, here is what a 128x128 theater would look like - roughly located on Korea, I grabbed the DEMS and did a quick transform. Gives a lot more possibilities I think.



You get the whole of Japan, more of Russia and some other places too...

Julian.

[ccc]

ya, Julian you..create the world!

btw,
1. iirc isn't there difficulty to get russian/china terrain data?
2. in ods 128, i found entering TE UI/map, you'll freeze about tens seconds, while exiting to debriefing page, also freeze, or halt tens seconds... map too large to load?
3. iirc Seek is trying to get his Japan theater in 128, probably overlap with this one.

[codec]

quote:Originally posted by ccc:
ya, Julian you..create the world!

No - you're confusing me with a deity figure I think

quote:
3. iirc Seek is trying to get his Japan theater in 128, probably overlap with this one.

We need a new mechanism so we can fly from one terrain into another - that would fix it...
The once we've finished the whole earth - their are Martian DEMS available

I wonder what the F-16 performance is in that sort of atmosphere....

Julian.

[Red Dog]

Hey, that's the football world cup map

Cheers
RD

[Widowmaker]

quote:Originally posted by Red Dog:
Hey, that's the football world cup map

Cheers
RD

this is exactly what I've done with B1b's
in Iceland, flying directly from the States
works just fine

Widmak

[Talon]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by codec:
Just as a what if, here is what a 128x128 theater would look like - roughly located on Korea, I grabbed the DEMS and did a quick transform. Gives a lot more possibilities I think.



For the record I'll put my enthusiastic vote in for a theater like this for SP3

[T_Rex]

Actually, could the BMP operation of CATE help make the islands? Or would terrainview be easier?

Just wondering. I'd be willing to help, but I'd probably be a "last resort" type resource.

[Talon]

quote:Originally posted by Snake Man:
(moved the topic here, Korea)
Yeah just take original 2 byte L2 and edit that, then keep it 2 byte.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[T_Rex]

I think what that means is that you can take the .l2 file and load it into either CATE or Terrainview and edit it.

I think both programs allow you to change the elevation of the terrain, in essence to make islands rise from the seas. I'm not sure you'd be able to define towns or stuff on the islands, I haven't walked that far down the theater-creation trail yet.

[codec]

Refuelling ... yuck - never managed to master this - looks liking summer tanking school for me once again

However - I expect Japan with its many dense cities would make up for that.

As to islands and stuff - CATE seems like an ideal tool for the job. We paint in a bitmap of some islands, and get it to raise the land there. Snakeman - can it do it currently - if not - Skyfire - where are you!!

Of course you could do it terrain view too... Chuck - how about a small bitmap
with some islands sketched in to show exactly what you mean.
Nothing fancy - just spoldges of colour.

Julian.

[Widowmaker]

just for the record.

for SP3 we don't got the lates 2Byte L2.
think Chris has the lates one.
I got the one from Olivers but it needs releveling of the airbases
... ehm
Hey Cate can do this too..

the L2 from 1.08i2 and FalconSP3 are 2 different ones in regards to airbases tiling

Widmak

[Talon]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by codec:
Refuelling ... yuck - never managed to master this - looks liking summer tanking school for me once again

These are approximate, but illusrates better what I have in mind.

Crap! I can't attach an image...

Here we go! Try this! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/F4Iceland ... rea%2B.JPG

Thank you Widowmaker!



-Chuck-

[kinggeorge]

Hey Julian i just trained tanking (after reading rosenkranz' book)a little bit and it is to master in realistic mode with "refuel help" checked in the cfg. But you have to rely more on the hud than on the tanker itself (contrary to RL pilots). Stay exactly on 19960ft and keep that fpm at 0° when you change your speed (aoa changes!)! Once you hang on the boom you have to correct even if you think it's goes automatically...

As far as Korea goes - no offense but I am really really tired of this theater. I wouldn'z waste one more min into this theater altough I must say that the 128 map looks really cool

Once we have decent campaigns (of the scale of the korean ones) for the other theaters like balkans and ODS and europe many won't miss korea much

[Snake Man]

The only problem with the Chuck's latest suggestion is that if we must go both ways: 108i2 + SP, then we have problems because of the old 2 byte (108i2) and new 4 byte (SP) terrain formats.

108i2 only no problem.
SP only no problem.

If we could take SP newly edited L2 and convert it back to 2 byte (not sure this is possible, at least no util I know of does this currently), then I'm not sure how the campaign files work in 108i2 as I remember tacedit been altered to SP at some point (Codec correct me when I'm wrong).

Editing the islands itself is no problem.
Creating Codecs 128 whole theater is no problem.

We just need a good plan of what we want to do.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Talon]

quote:Originally posted by kinggeorge:

Once we have decent campaigns (of the scale of the korean ones) for the other theaters like balkans and ODS and europe many won't miss korea much

Heh, if we can get a good 1985 Europe terrain/campaign I'd be done with Korea too

[Talon]

quote:Originally posted by Snake Man:
The only problem with the Chuck's latest suggestion is that if we must go both ways: 108i2 + SP, then we have problems because of the old 2 byte (108i2) and new 4 byte (SP) terrain formats.

Editing the islands itself is no problem.
Creating Codecs 128 whole theater is no problem.

We just need a good plan of what we want to do.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

Hehe, If I had any say in the matter I'd say do all three!

The i2 mod would be in F4p format and be an addon to RP5.

The edit to the current SP3 Korean terrain could be either a F4p type setup or a unzip to your falcon4 folder with the overwrite files option on.

I'm all for the 128 terrain too. I'd like to see it as an in addition to type thing though. Not instead of. If it came down to it though I'd say do the i2 edit and the 128 for SP.

[Washout]

Hi Guys

I have Arcview and Mapinfo - not used them much but I'll give it a go if you want.

Julian - Mail me the DEM's and the projection you need them in. If I find time I'll do them (if not I'll loan someone the software for a spell).

Later


Chris

[ccc]

Hey guys are you SERIOUS?

[Tweety]

Hi
I'm belong to JapanTheater project team.(Akira "Seek"'s team)


Later
Masashi

[ccc]

Hi Tweety,

be sure to use latest CATE technology to speed up terrain tiling.

BTW i'd really want an old-nice-Kurile island theater..wonderful Falcon3 days!

[SACEUR]

quote:Originally posted by Washout:
Hi Guys

I have Arcview and Mapinfo - not used them much but I'll give it a go if you want.

Julian - Mail me the DEM's and the projection you need them in. If I find time I'll do them (if not I'll loan someone the software for a spell).

Later


Chris

I think the DEM's arent the problem from maproom you have to fetch an arcview project from digital chart of the world (DCW)like russai west and check in as is currently and then save it back to the geoid projection all other countries are stored in.

My guess is that you will have do in stripes/bands.

[Skyfire76]

Hi guys,

Sorry, I completly missed that thread ... Do you still need some input/ideas from me, about CATE ?

Regards.

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by Skyfire76:
Do you still need some input/ideas from me, about CATE

Always

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Skyfire76]

LOL

OK, I'll rephrase it then : if you still need input/ideas from me, just let me know exactly what you need

Regards.

[Snake Man]

Suggestions for Korea 128 theater.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[ccc]

no offense SM...if you are going to make official 128 Korea theater, i'd rather like a 128 Kola pennisula or Berling strait, or Kurile island.. im tired of korea.. :p

[JimG]

Friends, I don't want to spoil anyone's party, but USAF typically makes up provisional fighter squadrons and then moves them into the theatre of operations. These usually are called AEFs. I know we all want to have maximum realism, but the 2 F-16CJ squadrons at Misawa (13th FS/14th FS) would be primed to move some of their aircraft to mainland ROK airbases rather than fly the long sorties from Misawa. This would be the same for the 2 F-15C squadrons at Kadena (44th FS & 67th FS). So while expanding the map/theatre is a good idea, we need to understand that this isn't necessarily a realism enhancement and that flying long combat sorties from those bases is not as practical as simulating the movement of these aircraft to the ROK mainland.

[araquael]

Hiya Jim

You are of course right, but the "Rolling Fire" campaign is a "first day of war" scenario. Well, 9am on the first day or war, after a nice breakfast, reading the paper, a quick jog and a second coffee...

So the Japanese based USAF squadrons would probably still be in Japan, and probably would have local CAP tasking and so forth, until arrangements could be made to send them into Korea.

And we could also have a Post-Iron fortress campaign...after allied forces have been driven from Korea itself, and the allies are launching strikes on occupied Korea.



I too am bored with Korea, but both the Korea 2005 and the Winter terrain (together) help refresh the scenario, and seeing the enhanced terrain in action would help even more.

Gavin