Guideline for creating a working campaign?

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Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by ccc » 2010-09-11 09:23:15

All falcon modders kept looking for some campaign-making guidelines.. but there's no such document.
To collect useful info, here i list my cam-tweaking findings - hope other campaign-modders post theirs too.

1. for Ground war, road system must be checked- espeically the main combat routes. check with Terrainview for road tiling, and check with TacEdit for objective-linking and move cost values.

2. Ground units better be placed precisely on roads, or movable terrain. If GUs are placed in water or tough terrain, they will become immobilized forever.

3. Team settings, US is always Team 1. first blue allied nation is Team 2(as ROK). First Red opponent is Team 6(as DPRK). In this way All Force ratio stripes and Force level diagrams could work properly.

4. Campaigns may need sufficient GUs to guard/secure several key objectives, then surplus GUs can be used for Offensive maneuvor. If GUs quantity is too few, one side may not be able to launch any offensive.

5. Ground units are organized into Division-Brigade-Battalion system. Ground Task Manager(AI) seems send order to Brigade level directly.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Snake Man » 2010-09-11 12:15:24

ccc wrote:2. Ground units better be placed precisely on roads, or movable terrain. If GUs are placed in water or tough terrain, they will become immobilized forever.
I tried to fix the old TCL scripts with the new system of placing ground units in objectives... however it is not certain that the objective is on road or in otherwise linked location.

So we still have one more check to do, the objective must be properly linked or in road.

Do you have any examples in default korea where there is objective but its CUT off from others regarding ground unit movement, or is there no such thing?

In PMC theaters I'm sure there are many of these situations, but I'd like to think that at least the big (PAK) cities should be well placed on city tiles... but is it city-ROAD tile... dunno :o
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Luk » 2010-09-11 15:29:44

..but is it city-ROAD tile... dunno
I GUESS the city(urban) type tiles are all "permeable" for GU(at least urban areas on the tiles in case of transitions). I guess it is the only type of terrain, which does not need to have road paths defined. Can somebody confirm this?

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-12 19:45:18

Paths\Tile TYPE Gent's!!! Your still not getting it!!!!!! :idea:
This is a Snippet of de-compiled original F4 Code:

GROUND_PATH_MAX;how far out we look for Ground Path's ,this is the "PATH" drawn on the tile\wireframe
OBJ_GROUND_PATH_MAX_SEARCH;how far out we look for OBJECTIVE Link's
OBJ_GROUND_PATH_MAX_COST;how much the two above Cost's us to get there

img]http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49 ... TEShot.jpg[/img]

In the shot above from Stock F4 Korea, the Black line's are "ROADS" drawn on the TILE'S
The Red line's are the "PATH" drawn on the tile's (These are what the GU's follow!!!)
The light blue and light green are "AREAS" in the Tile Set that are impassable by GU's i.e. Water\Heavily Forrested!!!
The Yellow dot's are Object's and as you can see some of them are Bridge's over the Water and that those bridge's are not needed for the "ROAD"S" but needed for the "PATHS"
The Dark Blue "AREA" is the City\Urban tiles\area
What can we figure out from this????

Can you hear me now???? :)
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Luk » 2010-09-12 20:23:05

Just to be clear - I always thaught, there are paths (means defined vectors, more generic therm - road, rivers, rail - unused...)
The road feature is specific kind of path.

I dont understand your separation - red paths + black roads...?

img]http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab4/ ... tkopie.jpg[/img]

I can recognize some additional urban/city areas in your image (pink coloured here).
You can see, the objectives placed over these specific areas are NOT connected by roads very often.
So I guess this is the only case, when the objectives must not be situated direcly on roads.
It was my point in previous post.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-12 20:25:36

ccc wrote:All falcon modders kept looking for some campaign-making guidelines.. but there's no such document.
To collect useful info, here i list my cam-tweaking findings - hope other campaign-modders post theirs too.

1. for Ground war, road system must be checked- espeically the main combat routes. check with Terrainview for road tiling, and check with TacEdit for objective-linking and move cost values.

2. Ground units better be placed precisely on roads, or movable terrain. If GUs are placed in water or tough terrain, they will become immobilized forever.

3. Team settings, US is always Team 1. first blue allied nation is Team 2(as ROK). First Red opponent is Team 6(as DPRK). In this way All Force ratio stripes and Force level diagrams could work properly.

4. Campaigns may need sufficient GUs to guard/secure several key objectives, then surplus GUs can be used for Offensive maneuvor. If GUs quantity is too few, one side may not be able to launch any offensive.

5. Ground units are organized into Division-Brigade-Battalion system. Ground Task Manager(AI) seems send order to Brigade level directly.
1. "PATHS" must be checked in Pathmaker (See Post above)

2. Ground units better be placed precisely on PATHS, or movable terrain. If GUs are placed in water or tough terrain, they will become immobilized forever.Correct

3.Well, it seem's we need a bit more knowledge divulged about TEAM's in TacEdit\.cam!!!!!! :D
Ummmmmmm........Just a start!!!!!! Team 0 (ZERO) or XX Is NOT VIABLE in Falcon, it is a Placeholder on a list.
That is all.The other seven you can do what you wish with!!!!

4.True to a point. Team Initiative is needed to sustain\start an offensive.But, if your GU's are not getting reinforced on a regular basis then your team will quickly lose that initiative. There is a reason that was included in JuliOnion's tool!!!!!

5.Ummmmmmmmmmm............NOT Neccessary for F4\OF\FF..maybe for AF 'cause they did alot of Code work in that area. I can state this because you will get some "UNLOCKED" FF5 campaign's for Iran soon. There are NO division\brigade's that the GTM use's!!!! It will create them as needed!!!!! BUT!!!!! your Battlion's are important in how you Flag\Order them!!!! Believe me, I had argued this point for month's at FF.

Chew on that for awhile!!!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-12 20:40:21

Luk wrote:Just to be clear - I always thaught, there are paths (means defined vectors, more generic therm - road, rivers, rail - unused...)
The road feature is specific kind of path.

I dont understand your separation - red paths + black roads...?

img]http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab4/ ... tkopie.jpg[/img]

I can recognize some additional urban/city areas in your image (pink coloured here).
You can see, the objectives placed over these specific areas are NOT connected by roads very often.
So I guess this is the only case, when the objectives must not be situated direcly on roads.
It was my point in previous post.

Luk
Luk,
You are still not getting it!!!!!Not a problem!!!!
I'll explain it differently.
Falcon code doe's not CARE about a "ROAD DRAWN" on some ARTWORK!!!!
But, it doe's care about a PATH DRAWN on it's WIREFRAME.This is how the GTM Calculate's where the GU's can move!!!
IIRC there are 9 TILE type's and 5 AREA type's in Falcon.Baldeagle know's them all!!!! Of those, only a few are viable for GU movement!!!!

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Luk » 2010-09-12 20:52:17

I was not talking about artwork/pixel roads, but precisely vector roads(also paths IMHO) lying over particular tiles (defined via Pathmaker).
I was just asking if someone can confirm this:
Is urban type of terrain special in purpose?
Can GU move freely over this kind of terrain, even without vector road?
Just because code handle "urban" tiles in different way?

I guees yes, it is spatial, GU can move freely (in case no river path defined there).
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-12 21:06:33

Luk wrote:I was not talking about artwork/pixel roads, but precisely vector roads(also paths IMHO) lying over particular tiles (defined via Pathmaker).
I was just asking if someone can confirm this:
Is urban type of terrain special in purpose?
Can GU move freely over this kind of terrain, even without vector road?
Just because code handel "urban" tiles in different way?

I guees yes, it is spatial, GU can move freely (in case no river path defined there).
Luk
Yes, Urban Tile's are one of those TYPE'S that a GU can move freely over without a defined "Path". Same as Farm tile's etc..... But you need to make sure that they have an Objective LINK defined!!!
Restated in Notepad C++:

short GROUND_PATH_MAX;how far out we look for Ground Path's by number of Node's,this is the "PATH" drawn on the tile\wireframe
short OBJ_GROUND_PATH_MAX_SEARCH;how far out we look for Objective Link's by number of Node's
short OBJ_GROUND_PATH_MAX_COST;how much the two above Cost's us to get there

PLEAZ.............FORGET about "ROADS\RailLine's etc......." they do not MATTER!!!!!!! Think Path and Tile Type only!!!

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Snake Man » 2010-09-12 21:41:42

What is the matter with you guys for posting such huge images and quoting images?

Next person who posts larger image than 100kb, quotes image or otherwise misbehaves goes into two week holiday from PMC Tactical forums.

You have been warned.
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-12 21:46:30

Snake Man wrote:What is the matter with you guys for posting such huge images and quoting images?

Next person who posts larger image than 100kb, quotes image or otherwise misbehaves goes into two week holiday from PMC Tactical forums.

You have been warned.
Thought is was 640x640?????
Is that still to big?????

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by ccc » 2010-09-13 02:40:37

PLEAZ.............FORGET about "ROADS\RailLine's etc......." they do not MATTER!!!!!!! Think Path and Tile Type only!!!
Demer, we knew the difference.. in the case of default korea or theater using default korea tile set, Path on Tiles are already defined properly.. the path definition is set to follow road artwork on tiles.. so it doesn't make big difference whether call it Path or Road.

Currently the primary question for working campaign is..

In an extreme condition: i set team A has overwhelming GUs, team B has minimal GUs. TRI and team relations are properly set.
Why team A can not start major offensive and finish the war - in a straight forward way? GU composition bug? GU organization bug? PAK bug?

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Sherlock » 2010-09-13 16:51:48

ccc wrote:In an extreme condition: i set team A has overwhelming GUs, team B has minimal GUs. TRI and team relations are properly set.
Why team A can not start major offensive and finish the war - in a straight forward way? GU composition bug? GU organization bug? PAK bug?
Because you do all you testing at 64x speed I believe. I don't think the tasking engine works properly at that fast of setting. Slow it down to 1x or 2x (no faster than 4x for sure) and you'll see the GUs are properly tasked. I'm getting GU movement supporting Offensive in Iran on the SAVE2.CAM campaign (yes, I've had to change the .thr file to all plains and fix some links, especially to bridges) but the GU's are moving and taking the objectives laid out in the .TRI file.
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-13 22:24:03

@ ccc,
Thank you, for letting me know, you knew about "Paths and Tile Type's".I hope now , I will no longer see GU's stuck in the Mud or wandering the Desert Aimlessly!!! :mrgreen:

As for your MajorOffensive Bug...are you sure you gave the Blue side enough Initiative in Teams to even start an offensive??? Can't remember off hand between the Code's, but I think anything over 70-75 is good "Across the Board".
Also, are you starting with a bunch of Recruit's on the Blue side????

@Sherlock,
Correct!!! No faster than 16X or the AI's aim and the GTM goe's awry!!!
BTW Congrat's :D :D :D

Regard's,
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by molnibalage » 2010-09-14 10:14:50

1. for Ground war, road system must be checked- espeically the main combat routes. check with Terrainview for road tiling, and check with TacEdit for objective-linking and move cost values.

2. Ground units better be placed precisely on roads, or movable terrain. If GUs are placed in water or tough terrain, they will become immobilized forever.
When I will reach the point where I tweaked the campaigns for MolnyFalcon can anyone help me at least check my work? I wish to ensure that ground war will work.
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Polak » 2010-09-14 12:10:50

I know not too much about paths and areas, but I have noticed that in some of the tiles the paths sometimes are not matching the same start/end point. I am talking here exact coordinates. I presume taht this is sometimes because the pixels of the painted roads are off (and whoever was placing the paths on the tile followed the painted road) or sometimes the path itself is off slightly to the side (apparently for no reason). Is it not crucial that the all paths are continuing EXACTLY in the same start/end coordinates on each tile , or else they become broken?

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by ccc » 2010-09-14 12:48:45

Default korea tiles work well in default campaigns - so i assumed some path deviation is tolerable.. when road definition packed into THR, it shouldn't affect 2d War. OTOH, GUs can move over those terrain tile in 3d world.. few misaligned path definition shouldn't stop their movement.

of course, for highest quality of modding, you may want to "key-in" the exact coordinates of path.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by molnibalage » 2010-09-14 13:34:31

ccc wrote:Default korea tiles work well in default campaigns - so i assumed some path deviation is tolerable.. when road definition packed into THR, it shouldn't affect 2d War. OTOH, GUs can move over those terrain tile in 3d world.. few misaligned path definition shouldn't stop their movement.

of course, for highest quality of modding, you may want to "key-in" the exact coordinates of path.
My plan is if I add a new ground units to a campaign it will be placed on a army base, city or other objective that likely have working path definition. Is this a good idea or not?
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-15 00:33:34

molnibalage wrote:
ccc wrote:Default korea tiles work well in default campaigns - so i assumed some path deviation is tolerable.. when road definition packed into THR, it shouldn't affect 2d War. OTOH, GUs can move over those terrain tile in 3d world.. few misaligned path definition shouldn't stop their movement.

of course, for highest quality of modding, you may want to "key-in" the exact coordinates of path.
My plan is if I add a new ground units to a campaign it will be placed on a army base, city or other objective that likely have working path definition. Is this a good idea or not?
Molni,
Be careful that the "OBJECTIVE" that you are placing these GU's on are is not "Stuck in the MUD"!!!!!!

Just for MY information, cause you Guy's already know this.

1. An Objective placed on the MAP is only a MODEL that is Drawn on a Tile.(and is "LINKED TO")
2. The Tile it is placed on, better be a MoveType tile.
3. The TileType,is stated above :wink:
4. Urban Tile Type' s seem to have NO defined Path's but the AREA IS defined,hence the GU's can move through them. And that include's Modelled building's ...etc..THEY don't even see them.............just drive right through them......HAHAHAHAHA!!! (Must be that PATH thing ...HUH!?!?!?)

Can ya' hear me Now????

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by molnibalage » 2010-09-15 06:39:05

OK, I can understand your post, but how can I check about and object that is dangerous or not?
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-16 01:26:28

molnibalage wrote:OK, I can understand your post, but how can I check about and objective that is dangerous (placed in the Mud) or not?
Using TacEdit and the Show Relief Map Option........


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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by molnibalage » 2010-09-16 17:58:48

I know long time this funciot but what indicates that worng place or objective? Is this not "only" a terrain map?

If I define new link between the object will they work? Is there any process that I have to make to make usable them for ground units?
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-18 21:43:23

Sigh...........!!!! Where is the WATER on your Map!?!?!?!??! GU's can't move if they are "Stuck in the Mud"!!!!

C'mon Molni....!!!!

No, establishling an OBJECTIVE link on a Non-Pathed tile will not get you where you need to go.

OK.........Let's try this again in even simpler term's:

1.) Objective Link's ; Linked Objective's give the GTM\GU's the "Place" they need to go to.Period!!! This is calculated on the objective's Priority,Fuel,supply..etc.........Remember ONLY Citie's\Town's can be Primary Objective's and you are Limited to ~40 in Campaign.
2.) Path's; These are what the GTM\GU's USE to get to the "Place" they need to be!!! You can have great link's but broken Path's. So GU's will hold in place........!!!
3.) TileType; You need to make sure that the GU has a TileType with your Defined Path to your Objective Link that it can "Move" over.
4.) Move Cost; What it "Cost's" the GU .....to move over your path's to an objective.This is defined in the "Link's" you set down.'KAY a small explanation here:When you "Draw" a Link in TacEdit, it take's in and calculate's the Move Cost based on the 3 thing's above as well as the .thr file, OCD file,.l2file and texture.bin among other's!!!.HAHAHAHA!!!!! and you thought this was simple!!!! :mrgreen:

There is more,but I'll stop for now!!!!
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by molnibalage » 2010-09-19 18:15:48

I'm not sure that I understand everything. I will make a video about my questions, just for sure. :)
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-09-19 20:22:34

molnibalage wrote:I'm not sure that I understand everything.
YOU are not alone ........on this Forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-11-09 01:27:28

Here:

Good link,Bad Path.........

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49 ... adpath.jpg

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by ccc » 2010-11-09 02:15:43

Good link,Bad Path.........
Maybe add a junction type obj, to make [link route] fit the path.

BTW i suggest checking the road network/main combat routes in TE.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-11-10 02:30:13

Thank's ccc.....
But, that is not why I posted.
I purposely "BROKE" the "PATH" to the Objective in the L2 file.... :wink:
Why???? to show that even if you have a good link "Defined" doe's not mean that your GU can get there!!!!..HAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Let's start with MAP work (and I do not mean your .map file in your Texture Folder)........OK?!?!?!?!

#1...........Falcon (ANY Version!!!) use's a very complex "Calculator" called the VirtualUniverse.v2 or VU2 for short. The author of this piece of code (Mike,please don't pee on me now..... :) ) asserted and defined some random thing's in there to make it, at the time truly "Dynamic"!!!!!!!!! This, IMHO, is the most important part of Falcon.

'Kay,
Let's get back to MAP work.

1. Define your 'OBJECTIVE LINK's" in TacEdit (Remember that ONLY City's\Town's can be Primary\Secondary)
2. 'kay ....Cool...now your GU's kinda' know where they are spos'ed to go!!!!!!!!!!
3. So we'll put down a trans\road ...etc.TILE and they are fine??????????? NO GO!!!!!!!!
4. Now we HAVE to give them a way to get there from here!!!!!!!!!
5. Those are called "PATH's"!!!!!! GU's DO NOT, and I cannot say this enuff',need a "ROAD TILE"(ArtWork) to follow,they need a "PATH".....

that's it for now..............
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by ccc » 2010-11-10 03:14:31

GU needs good obj-linking(TacEdit work) and road path-tiling(terrainView work) to move.

Don't we confirm it's a golden rule for a while? :wink:

BTW, i suggest reduce odd or complex branching of road network. just simplify the road network at inter-connection area.. i doubt GU AI is smart enough to pass complex road junctions.
in my last TV tweak, i tried to tile roads by following TDF road lines..i should agressively simplify some trouble junctions..complex road junctions confuse GU movement calcuation.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-11-11 01:18:09

ccc wrote:GU needs good obj-linking(TacEdit work) and road path-tiling(terrainView work) to move.

Don't we confirm it's a golden rule for a while? :wink:

BTW, i suggest reduce odd or complex branching of road network. just simplify the road network at inter-connection area.. i doubt GU AI is smart enough to pass complex road junctions.
in my last TV tweak, i tried to tile roads by following TDF road lines..i should agressively simplify some trouble junctions..complex road junctions confuse GU movement calcuation.
1. First statement is correct. Objective link's are the MAP\Direction's that the GTM use's to tell the GU's where they need to go.They also Define the Cost of Moving over the anticipated Terrrain Type. (X.thr file)
2. The next statement is where I think we are\have been in the past, getting confused. "road path-tiling" suggest's that you nee a "ROAD" drawn on the tile =(ARTWORK),whether it be .pcx\.dds,for GU's to move(texture.bin file). That is incorrect!!!!!!!
What is correct is that your "Road" tile's have corresponding "Path's" defined on them. (X.l2 file).

Is that clearer to y'all or would some picture's be better???

demer

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by ccc » 2010-11-11 02:20:25

demer,

i think we've talked about tile-path in previous posts. yes we already knew it..the key is path-definition on tiles, we should use path-defined tiles to connect objectives, then GUs know how to move.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Luk » 2010-11-11 08:47:52

2. The next statement is where I think we are\have been in the past, getting confused. "road path-tiling" suggest's that you nee a "ROAD" drawn on the tile =(ARTWORK),whether it be .pcx\.dds,for GU's to move(texture.bin file). That is incorrect!!!!!!!
This is your fiction demer. I do not recall a single post, that would suggest something like that. Perhaps you have seen some screenshots, where the roads were hardly retraced - I use such a modified PCXs for handtiling. Its because normal bitmap roads are bad visible in terrainview resolution.

You are standing on the word "paths" for all features and it is not very happy IMHO. Paths are a generic phrase for opened vector features as road, rivers and unused rails. But a river feature is almost oposite to road feature in use. So why dont use the word "road" or "road path" for this kind of path?
Perhaps this is a point where confusion started.

Luk

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by toonces » 2010-11-22 22:47:56

I spent a really, really long time exploring all of this in my FF4 Nevada work.

ccc is spot on, as is Demer. The tiling and roads and linking are all vital.

Obj supply/fuel levels may also be important; priorities too.

My Nevada FF4 "Battle for Fulda" campaign WORKED. I demonstrated that. It's following the fundamentals is all.

And you have to have enough ground units. How many? I don't know, but running Nevada over and over and over, there were clear "wargaming" principles at work in how the sim tasked ground units.

Unit flags are also important, as Demer mentioned.

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by demer928 » 2010-11-23 00:44:41

ccc wrote:demer,

i think we've talked about tile-path in previous posts. yes we already knew it..the key is path-definition on tiles, we should use path-defined tiles to connect objectives, then GUs know how to move.
BINGO!!!!! :D !!!!!!
YA' GOT IT!!!!!! 8-)
Now, look in your your .bin file and find your HRODS\HTRANS Tile's and see if you have DEFINED a PATH on them......hmm?? :mrgreen: :?:

demer
@Toonces, Thanks M8!!!!!

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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by molnibalage » 2010-12-11 19:39:24

I use Tacedit for campaign tweaking. My goals are the followings:

- I wish to place some SAM sites all around the map to ensure more realistic SAM placement and "false positions" for SAM batteries.

- Setting a continous reinformenets for ground troops to keep up the action in campaigns. I can arrange the AC squadron reinforcements. I can copy the flag setting from exsiting reinforcements. I know that number in "reinf" cell is define the hour when the squadron will arrive. (With some randomization, and you have to exint and load the campaign to update the campaign the engine.)

- Plancing some new ground units that will invade RoK in the first day of campaign. (2nd and 3rd attack waves just behind the DMZ.) My guess is that capture orders + AObj desidgation works.

- Setting mobile SAMs (for ex. SA-6) as way to follow ground troops during campaign. The big problem that this is the only mobile SAM in DB - as I know - except SHORADs are SA-4 and SA-6. How can I force them to follow time to time the FLOT if the red side advance to south?
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Re: Guideline for creating a working campaign?

Post by Snake Man » 2010-12-11 23:47:38

molnibalage, you need to put your campaign editing questions to some other topic because this one is basically just the backbone info of how to create working campaign (ground unit movement on links etc), not some specific how to place SAM sites.
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