Europe 1985 Cold War - database

Europe theater

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Europe 1985 Cold War - database

Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-12 06:48:25

Europe Database Edits

Here is the list of edits I have done so far (on SP3 times and 2007) for the historical 1985 cold war database.

Hardpoints:
- A-10 removed CBU-97.
- B-1B removed JDAM, JSOW, CBU-97.
- B-52H removed AGM-142, (JDAM, JSOW), CBU-97.
- F-111F removed ?, AGM-130, GBU-28, BLU-107.
- F117 removed GBU-27. (JDAM?)
- F-14B removed FAB.
- F-15C removed AIM-120B. Added AIM-7M.
- F-15E removed AIM-120B. JDAM, AGM-130, CBU-97. Added AIM-7M.
- F-16CG removed AIM-120B, CBU-97, BLU-107, JDAM, JSOW. Added AIM-7M.
- F-18C removed JDAM, JSOW, AIM-120B. added AIM-7M.


JDAM: GBU-29, GBU-30, GBU-31, GBU-32, GBU-35, GBU-38.
JSOW: AGM-154.
GAM: GBU-36/B, GBU-37/B.

As you can see there is F-15E listed, according to fas.org it was deployed 1987 (similar situations can be with other aircrafts, havent checked), is this reasonable flexibility for fictional 1985 cold war scenario or should we strictly use hardware deployed prior or during '85?
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-12 09:30:14

AIM-7 in F-16? Only ANG F-16s have this capability, but these plane had never fly in Europe.

Otherwise, my best theater is this, and this time period. ('85-'87)

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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-12 09:43:43

My notice is that EVERY missile in this era are too accurate in the game. I made some changes with F4Browse and modified the simadata.zip.

I reduced the manouverability some missiles and increased the flare chance value. Especially the R-27R (AA-10A) is TOO accurate (But the R-73 and the AIM-9M have the same problem). The germans try this weapon with this MIG-29s and they noticed, that weapon has almost the a same characteristics thet AIM-7E (!!) Sparrow. The hit chace was about 15% in a test shooting. (And in a war action will be more little...) In the game is MUCH higher that nuber.

This modifications needs for Europe need all theater I think. Intrested by anyone? You have to copy and backup some file to work the modifications.

I used F4Browse and edited text in simdata. I correct the chaff/falre capabilities for russiean planes and I set new quantities becasue the original were incorrect for some aicraft.

I have an excel table that shows what I changed and how. Contains the old and the new values.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-12 11:25:49

Dono what to say about such info... really. i do believe F4 DB is the most accurate there is in the world of flight sims... and i also think such missile performance is very much depends who you ask. i don't think AA-10 is so terrible... you can really beat it if flying good enough... also i think lots of RL statistics about such SARH missiles aren't related to missile performance... but more to poor launch profiles. think of it... in RL, with such SARH missiles...they probably don't take chances and just fire all they got one by one just to take out one plane... it makes sense, enemy will notice radar lock, turn around 180 if can't fight... what happen? missile loosing energy while chasing and you can call it a miss... i read some story from Golf war in 1991 about F-15 chasing after MIG-25, fired all his AIM-7Ms and never got a hit because was always on chase... on the other hand the AIM-7M is well known to be much more accurate than the former types... and of course this days, when you got ARH missiles it's a different story... while not even waking up the RWR... it's very hard to avoid... first thing you'll get is the missile radar got a lock on you... probably too late.

I'm hard to believe that the MIG-29 and SU-27 main weapon is such a shitty missile to be less accurate than the AIM-7E... really doesn't make sense. but on the other hand i read once an article about a simulation between a flight of F-15C against a similar flight of SU-27/35 and the main issue was that simulation shows very little or non at all advantage to the F-15s... means it can't be that a flight of SU-27/35 carrying (some of them) AA-10s can defeat a flight of F-15s with AIM-120s... if missiles are so poor performers...

Just my 2 cents.

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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-12 12:31:49

"MIG-29 and SU-27 main weapon is such a shitty missile to be less accurate than the AIM-7E..."

The R-27R is the child of the CCCP electronics from the '70s. DON'T forget!! The NEWER R-27 versions are better, but in the '80s only this have. The R-23R was worse than this. Can you imagine this? Compare with the R-23R the R-27R is a (great) step forward. Very hard...


" hand i read once an article about a simulation between a flight of F-15C against a similar flight of SU-27/35 and the main issue was that simulation shows very little or non at all advantage to the F-15s."

If an aircraft have AMRAAM and the other has only ANY type of SARH missile, the odds for vicory for the guy with SARH is VERY litte, almost not excist...

I know the hit ratios of the Gulf War and the Falkland War. In the Gulf the AIM-7M and AIM-9M hit ratio were over 70%, but in Falkland war the south american (well trained) pilots use against the Harriers good french IR missiles, but opposits with flare dispesers equipped Harriers they have a little chance, didn't achive any air victories. In the Gulf the coalition had Air Superiority in numbers and technics and could achive 70% hit ratio, but ANY enemy plane hadn't ECM or chaff/flare dispenser...
Last edited by molnibalage on 2007-04-12 12:48:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-12 12:45:24

molnibalage wrote: If an aircraft have AMRAAM and the other has only ANY type of SARH missile, the odds for vicory for the guy with SARH is VERY litte, almost not excist...
Depends on range... if SARH has more range than AMRAAM... you can't tell for sure...
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-12 13:15:07

Tell me any type of SARH missile that has minimum 20% grater range than any other SARH for. ex AIM-120C-4 or C-5.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-12 15:08:44

mmm... not SARH but F-14s with AIM-54 can sure be a problem to any fighter... especially a couple of them coming for together from 50NM+

I also dono the AA-9 too well but if it's really close to the AIM-54 then i guess that can be a good answer.

Real shame falcon can't simulate real long range combats... because of bubble limitations... but maybe for the future... when hardware will get even stronger... who knows? and i mainly think here of long range AG munitions. :)
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-12 17:09:41

How big the bubble with set to max?

The AIM-54 in no longer available, because the Tomcat out of service.
In the real if use not over the se the AIM-54, the hit ration falls dramatically. (In iraq-iran the hit ration was about 30%)

AA-9 is a real threat but the MIG-31 is a "Home Air Denefse" figther, in real was a little chance to meet any fighter with this aircraft. MIG-31 constructed to hunt cruise missiles and strategic bombers.

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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-12 19:07:53

Okay guys if you want to discuss (argue) about the effectivenes of air to air missiles, please open a new topic for it in the Falcon 4 General area. This really doesn't help me to build the Europe 1985 loadouts.

I have heard you, and I will not start to tweak simdata.zip and such values as I have no idea what to do. So if some day, somehow, someone will do it, great, but that day is not now.

So lets keep discussion about the loadouts what to remove from F4 current databases etc.
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-12 22:46:32

Ok.

Snakeyes for F-16 and other planes? It's a GP bomp with flaps. So far I know every plane can carry this dumb bomb.

Triple AGM-65 launchers for every plane that carry AGM-65 on the "harder" hardpoint. For G version don't excist triple launchers.

Remove every A-G missile from russian figters.

Unguided rockets need a little search but I think some aircraft can carry more type and quantites that now in sim.

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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-19 13:59:11

Database for Europe Ok, but when comes the theater under RV?

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Post by Sherlock » 2007-04-19 15:23:42

molnibalage wrote:Database for Europe Ok, but when comes the theater under RV?
@ molnibalage: I've noticed you "hanging out" here at PMC quite a bit. To the best of my knowledge RV does NOT have a dedicated person working on theater just for it (RV). OF and AF do (I think). Do you want to take on that responsibility to work (under Snake Man's direction, of course) all theater RV moddings?
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-20 18:16:52

Sherlock wrote:
molnibalage wrote:Database for Europe Ok, but when comes the theater under RV?
I can't mod theaters. I can use only F4Browse and Tacedit and I know the simdata.zip a little.

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Post by Sherlock » 2007-04-20 18:44:02

molnibalage wrote:
Sherlock wrote:
molnibalage wrote:Database for Europe Ok, but when comes the theater under RV?
I can't mod theaters. I can use only F4Browse and Tacedit and I know the simdata.zip a little.
Starting in late 2005 (when I started flying Falcon AF regularly) I couldn't mod or make new theaters either. Heck, I didn't even know new theaters could be made! Then I found out about PMC. I got registered here at PMC and started reading the forums and asking questions around wherever I could find help (Frugals, Freefalcon, PMC). Then I started learning the different tools and utilities that are used for theater making: DEM2Terrain, Pathmaker, TacEdit, TerrainView, etc., and got familar with them.

Then I started building my own theater; going through the steps laid out in the "Ultimate Theater Tutorial". So it was a gradual process but I did it and I write this just to show you that just over 1 year ago I knew nothing about Falcon Theater making. You can do the same as I did. It just takes committment and dedication to learn. None of us are experts with any one application. Heck, you probably know more about F4Browse then I do since all I use it for is it look up existing database objects information!

But the bottomline is you can do it if you put your mind to it. And RedViper needs a full time "Theater coordinator" working under Snake Man's direction (since I don't think it currently has anyone in that role).
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-21 10:41:51

So, the tutorials here contain enough info to modify theatrers? I will try, but not now, I dont't have time.... :(

The big problem, that I don't know what are the differences between the old FF3 theaters installs and RV theaters installs and I don't know why they don't work under RV. So if I can use the programs, I don't know what sould I do to convert.

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Re: Europe 1985 Cold War - database

Post by ccc » 2007-04-21 10:46:41

Snake Man wrote:Europe Database Edits
As you can see there is F-15E listed, according to fas.org it was deployed 1987 (similar situations can be with other aircrafts, havent checked), is this reasonable flexibility for fictional 1985 cold war scenario or should we strictly use hardware deployed prior or during '85?
i think you can have one or two F-15E sq as reinforcement, show up at later stage of campaigns.

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Post by Sherlock » 2007-04-21 15:58:45

molnibalage wrote:So, the tutorials here contain enough info to modify theatrers? I will try, but not now, I dont't have time.... :(

The big problem, that I don't know what are the differences between the old FF3 theaters installs and RV theaters installs and I don't know why they don't work under RV. So if I can use the programs, I don't know what sould I do to convert.
You have to install both FF3 and RV and compare the differences. When you can't figure out something then go ask questions at the FF site. They are very helpful guys and will very likely be able to help you out.
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Warsaw pact had weapons :)

Post by Luk » 2007-04-23 22:29:17

molnibalage wrote: Remove every A-G missile from russian figters.
Please don't do that:

1968- Ch 66 (AS-7 Kerry 1.st) manual guided- for Mig21 PFM
1973- Ch-23M (AS-7 Kerry) manual guided- MiG-23 (2), MiG-27 (2), Su-22 a Su-24 (4)
1978- Ch-58U (AS-11 Kilter)-SEAD - Su-17/22 Su-24M (2), later MiG-25BM, MiG-27 (2)
1975- Ch-25M (AS-12 Kegler) laser, TV -better then Ch-25- in night, bad weather, better CCM, fire and forget -MiG-27, later standard for most planes and some helis (Ka-50)
1980 Kh-29L/T (AS-14 Kedge)- MiG-27 (2), Su-17 (2) a Su-24M (3), later Su-22 (2), Su-25T/-39 (4) and MiG-29

..and I did not mentionet large types like Ch-22 (AS-4 Kitchen) for big bombers and so on....

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Re: Warsaw pact had weapons :)

Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-24 08:20:40

Luk wrote:
molnibalage wrote: Remove every A-G missile from russian figters.
Please don't do that:

1968- Ch 66 (AS-7 Kerry 1.st) manual guided- for Mig21 PFM
1973- Ch-23M (AS-7 Kerry) manual guided- MiG-23 (2), MiG-27 (2), Su-22 a Su-24 (4)
1978- Ch-58U (AS-11 Kilter)-SEAD - Su-17/22 Su-24M (2), later MiG-25BM, MiG-27 (2)
1975- Ch-25M (AS-12 Kegler) laser, TV -better then Ch-25- in night, bad weather, better CCM, fire and forget -MiG-27, later standard for most planes and some helis (Ka-50)
1980 Kh-29L/T (AS-14 Kedge)- MiG-27 (2), Su-17 (2) a Su-24M (3), later Su-22 (2), Su-25T/-39 (4) and MiG-29

..and I did not mentionet large types like Ch-22 (AS-4 Kitchen) for big bombers and so on....

Luk
I said about the REAL fighters, not fighter bombers! MIG-21, MIG-23, (SU-27). In real it is an option that these carry A-G missiles, but not good for the game. The campaign engine can't hadle this easy.

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AG missiles

Post by Luk » 2007-04-24 21:57:37

ok ok,
but what kind of problem does the engine have?
For me it's a pitty, I can not to load Kerry on pure Flogger - my favorite bird..

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AA2 update

Post by Luk » 2008-08-25 19:04:21

There is one big difference when flying Mig 21MF in F4 FF/OF and AF. F4AF Migs are much more dangerous, because they are armed with R13M instead R3S missiles.
I like to fly Mig21F/MF in AF very much, because I can hit target with missile (not only by cannon :) ). Its because AF's advanced atolls fly lead pursuit intercept course (despite of AF's tacref says that it is pure pursuit missile... he he).
It is still vulnerable to flares, but can hit turning target.

I made personal research and have a some info about AA2, but no details about it's approximation. I think even quite old missiles can be able to "lead". Espacially R13M1 is late 70's missile and can fly 2x more G's then early versions, has cooled head and its guidance and fuze is from the same time like updated Aphids (with proporcional approximation).

Is it possible to add those better atolls into FFx Eu database please?
It will be still nightmare to fly against Eagles and Vipers, but a little bit better balanced.

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Post by Snake Man » 2008-08-25 21:52:25

If its realistic for that time era, yes sure.
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Post by derStef » 2008-09-01 14:07:04

if i'm allowed, i will take over the additon/removing of weapons via f4browse for western/NATO ACs...

we have also to overwork the battalions for the sake of realism. example remove SA-16s and so on...

anyone else?


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Post by Snake Man » 2008-09-01 16:31:56

Sure derstef, I'd be happy to see you working on the database.

To recap, here is my europe database text file contents, I hope its up to date.

Code: Select all

	Europe Database Edits

Squadron stores:
- removed all AIM-120B's, AIM-9X, BLU-107, CBU-97, JDAM, JSOW, GBU-27, 28.
- removed all GAM, AGM-130, AGM-142.

Hardpoints:
- A-10 removed CBU-97.
- B-1B removed JDAM, JSOW, CBU-97.
- B-52H removed AGM-142, (JDAM, JSOW), CBU-97. 
- F-111F removed ?, AGM-130, GBU-28, BLU-107.
- F117 removed GBU-27. (JDAM?)
- F-14B removed JDAM.
- F-15C removed AIM-120B. Added AIM-7M.
- F-16CG/CJ removed AIM-120B, CBU-97, BLU-107, JDAM, JSOW. All LGBs.
- F-4ESK removed AGM-130.
- F-18C removed JDAM, JSOW, AIM-120B, AIM-9X and all LGBs, added AIM-7M.


JDAM: GBU-29, GBU-30, GBU-31, GBU-32, GBU-35, GBU-38.
JSOW: AGM-154.
GAM: GBU-36/B, GBU-37/B.
Now, take the database files from the latest release naturally and make sure you have installed Europe Theater into a clean and original RV installation so there is nothing modded for the default korea database dir as we dont want to have any conflicts.

Then when you edit; document everything. This is very important that you document what you do, so the work is not lost and others can see the edits. Post the edits into this forum topic so I can update the first page.
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Post by derStef » 2008-09-02 15:43:54

All rules Ok for me SM!
the only thing what i'm thinking about is:
should i wait for FF5s brandnew database or should i modify the FF4 DB?? hmmm hard question, i don't want to do the work twice you know....

the time will show... :wink:

cheers
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