Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Operation Desert Storm theater

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Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by toonces » January 14, 2009, 07:12:00 AM

Hi all.

I've been doing some reading on ODS, and giving some thought to this theater in general since we seem to be moving in the ODS direction with campaign development.

As I've said on at least 3 different threads now, I don't find the ODS "stock" campaign particularly interesting. I've played a handful of missions twice in ODS (two separate campaigns) and I didn't think it was all that exciting from the Coalition side. Which is probably historically accurate since the Coalition forces beat back the Iraqi's fairly handily and quickly in Desert Storm.

Having said that, the terrain, skins, planes, and theater in general is a great place for campaign creation. With some imagination I think there are a few avenues for some exciting campaigns to be created.

1. Operation Desert Shield (hypothetical variant): From what I've been able to gather, when Iraq started to seem like it was going to invade Kuwait, the US scrambled a couple of CV/CVN's to the Gulf region. When Iraq actually invaded, though, the US was essentially caught flat-footed. The US response was Desert Shield, a rapid mobilization of forces to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region to block Saddam from invading Saudi Arabia after Kuwait.
I looked through a few of my books and I can't find the reference I was looking for talking about the chances of Saddam actually pushing through much of Saudi Arabia after Kuwait had he chosen to do so. I think it might have been in "Vipers in the Storm" which I don't own (I'm like the only Falcon 4 player that actually thought that book sucked hard).
At any rate, what I gathered from the books I do have is that Saddam could have hypothetically pushed into Saudi, and the US/Saudi's would have been hard pressed to stop him. So, an interesting scenario might be to simulate this.
The start of the scenario would have the Iraqi forces in Kuwait, tasked with capturing some objectives in Saudi. The initial friendly forces would consist of a US CV or two, plus a few squadrons of Saudi jets (OOB needs to be researched, probably F-15s, F-5Es, A-4s from Kuwait). The campaign would have US reinforcements arriving piecemeal over about 7-14 days. Victory conditions would be if Iraq captures some objective in Saudi (simulating Saudi compliance and kicking US out of Saudi), or US/Coalition stopping Iraqi advance (could be, if objectives HAVEN'T been captured by Iraq after 21 days...)

2. WW3: Persian Front (hypothetical): We've been discussing the European theater alot...if WW3 broke out, the Persian front would almost certainly be drawn into the conflict. Hackett proposed a southern operation (also proposed in Red Storm Rising, but the Soviets never started this portion because the European front was never won) where the Soviets move to secure the Persian Gulf oil fields. Believe it or not, Iraq/Iran is actually a US ally in Hackett's scenario! I'd need to research this better (I always bore of Hackett before I get to the meat of the Persian operations), but a hypothetical scenario in this campaign would have Soviet/WP forces moving from the north into Iraq/Kuwait. Victory conditions for Red would be capturing Kuwait City or some southern Iraqi region. Blue forces would be Iraq, Iran, and perhaps a US/NATO surface group...perhaps a CV group with French or British aircraft. This would be a very nice campaign to create player-flyable MiGs, Mirages (F-1, 2000 series, etc), A-4s, F-4s, Tornados, F-16A, etc...depending on time-frame of campaign.

3. Iran-Iraq War: Would use the ODS terrain, but I don't know a thing about the conflict. I propose it for completeness of thought.

Of the 3, perhaps #2 is easiest to generate because it is totally hypothetical. We use some of the references for a starting point and background, and then based on how we wargame the scenario, we create the OOB. And, especially because it's hypothetical, we can make the campaign very balanced so that it can be fought and won by both sides.

The more I think about it, the more stoked I get on this idea. It uses new terrain (immersion), has high 'unusual' value, provides alot of new planes to fly (capitalizes on FF5 content), and has enough latitude wrt OOB that we can make a very competitive campaign.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Sherlock » January 14, 2009, 04:56:30 PM

Very interesting ideas toonces.

I especially like the idea about the hypothetical Iraq invasion of Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Storm, hypothetical). I'd have to look again at the ODS Saudi Arabia coverage but there might be enough major cities in Saudi Arabia to make this a very interesting scenario.

Your WW3 hypothetical also sounds intriguing but as I haven't read Hacketts book I have no feel for what you are really proposing here. However, if it were set back during the 70's it would believable but any later than that Iran and/or Iraq would not be allies of the US by any stretch of the imagination. So I would change that because it just isn't believable (until recently when Iraq became a "friend" of the US again).

The Iran/Iraq war scenario has always bored me to tears. It was basically a very low key air war coupled with a near-World War 1 trench war environment; that's boring with a capital "B". I recommend against this one.
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by derStef » January 14, 2009, 06:18:10 PM

great post, toonces, you speak the ideas out.
well we are really thinking almost the same about this stuff!


I like the Saudi/iraqi idea! also the Persian Red Storm Rising idea is perfect. Man that book is so cool!
the only problem i see in ODS theater are the very long flighttimes...

if you want 3 campaigns i would say: real life OOB is a must for me, most times...
- Dessert Storm 1990 with Real life OOB as good as we can. (easy)
- Iraqi invasion on Saudi Arabia (hard)
- 1980s Iraq/Iran war scenario or OIF or Toonces' Persian Red Storm Rising (medium/easy)

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 14, 2009, 06:43:56 PM

I can come up with a good deal of accurate, detailed information about Desert Shield, ORBATs, and US and probable Iraqi strategy for the 1990 hypothetical campaign. I also have info on Desert Storm ORBATS, strategies, targets, etc. Give me a little time (~ 3 weeks) and I'll collect it all together.

EDIT, April 18, 2009: Been and will be for a little more REALLY, REALLY busy. I should have all this info collected by mid-May. Sorry. (It's not like I'm going to produce an 80 page report either.... Just a couple pages, really. Just not much time on my hands these days. :roll:)
Last edited by Echo300 on April 18, 2009, 05:15:29 PM, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by derStef » January 14, 2009, 06:58:18 PM

Echo300 wrote:I can come up with a good deal of accurate, detailed information about Desert Shield, ORBATs, and US and probable Iraqi strategy for the 1990 hypothetical campaign. I also have info on Desert Storm ORBATS, strategies, targets, etc. Give me a little time (~ 1 week) and I'll collect it all together.

wow, thanks that sound promising!

btw do you have such stuff also for other conflicts?

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by toonces » January 14, 2009, 07:59:28 PM

For the Desert Shield scenario, you'd need the OOB as it existed from 3 August 1990 (I think) until, say, 31 August. My understanding that after about a month the US mobilization had been sufficient to block Saddam from invading Kuwait.

I know I read a book about the hypothetical invasion of Saudi, I just can't remember the source anymore. I'll head to the library this afternoon if I can and see if I can find anything. Any good book about Desert Shield probably has everything.

But, on topic, any info about Desert Shield we can collect would be useful.

I think the OOB for the existing ODS is fairly accurate. I didn't create it, so I don't know what references were used, but I assume that alot of research went into unit placement.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by molnibalage » January 14, 2009, 08:09:35 PM

I especially like the idea about the hypothetical Iraq invasion of Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Storm, hypothetical). I'd have to look again at the ODS Saudi Arabia coverage but there might be enough major cities in Saudi Arabia to make this a very interesting scenario.
In this case will be reqiured a separated DB for this theater. IRL the F-15Es that time had only Mk-82/84 bombs and theoretically could use Mk-20 Rockeye (but testing releases weren't made! for the last one).
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 14, 2009, 08:48:19 PM

derStef wrote:
Echo300 wrote:I can come up with a good deal of accurate, detailed information about Desert Shield, ORBATs, and US and probable Iraqi strategy for the 1990 hypothetical campaign. I also have info on Desert Storm ORBATS, strategies, targets, etc. Give me a little time (~ 1 week) and I'll collect it all together.

wow, thanks that sound promising!

btw do you have such stuff also for other conflicts?
Thanks.

No, I don't have too much info on other conflicts/scenarios. Really just Desert Shield/Storm.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 14, 2009, 08:54:59 PM

toonces wrote:For the Desert Shield scenario, you'd need the OOB as it existed from 3 August 1990 (I think) until, say, 31 August. My understanding that after about a month the US mobilization had been sufficient to block Saddam from invading Kuwait.
I don't remember if you're right or not, but I can find out easily as I have plenty of info pertinent to that.
toonces wrote: I know I read a book about the hypothetical invasion of Saudi, I just can't remember the source anymore. I'll head to the library this afternoon if I can and see if I can find anything.
Every Man A Tiger, maybe?
toonces wrote:Any good book about Desert Shield probably has everything.

But, on topic, any info about Desert Shield we can collect would be useful.

I think the OOB for the existing ODS is fairly accurate.
We shall soon see. :wink:
toonces wrote: I didn't create it, so I don't know what references were used, but I assume that alot of research went into unit placement.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Fafa » January 14, 2009, 09:13:45 PM

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Sherlock » January 14, 2009, 09:36:56 PM

toonces wrote:For the Desert Shield scenario, you'd need the OOB as it existed from 3 August 1990 (I think) until, say, 31 August. My understanding that after about a month the US mobilization had been sufficient to block Saddam from invading Kuwait.
I think it is debateable as to whether the US forces inside S.A. could have stopped Iraqi forces in the August 1990 timeframe. Remember that the heavy armored brigades had not had time to make it to S.A. yet. They took about 3-4 months for deployment via ship to get to S.A. Same with the mechanized infantry brigades. The only forces that were there in that timeframe (to the best of my knowledge) was a air mobile cavalry brigade and the 101st airborne Division (probably). It will be an "eye opener" to see what echo300 has as what actually happened for timeline of deployment. But I definitely believe that the August 1990 timeframe was too early to have been able to stop Saddam's armored forces if he had really wanted to invade S.A.
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by toonces » January 14, 2009, 10:40:42 PM

Exactly- that's the whole point of the scenario.

The research I did last night (albeit brief) said that the reason Saddam didn't invade Saudi (or couldn't) was because he had to refit his armor after the drive into Kuwait. This pause allowed the US to reinforce with air, and then once the air forces/CVs were in place, Saddam lost the initiative to invade.

I'd be curious as to how well player-controlled airpower can blunt an armored thrust into Saudi- no IADS to contend with, lost of nice flat desert terrain, and F-18s/F-14s to attack MiG-21/23/25 and Mirage F-1s...

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Sherlock » January 14, 2009, 11:49:05 PM

toonces wrote:Exactly- that's the whole point of the scenario.

The research I did last night (albeit brief) said that the reason Saddam didn't invade Saudi (or couldn't) was because he had to refit his armor after the drive into Kuwait. This pause allowed the US to reinforce with air, and then once the air forces/CVs were in place, Saddam lost the initiative to invade.

I'd be curious as to how well player-controlled airpower can blunt an armored thrust into Saudi- no IADS to contend with, lost of nice flat desert terrain, and F-18s/F-14s to attack MiG-21/23/25 and Mirage F-1s...
Exactly. Looking forward to Echo300's information on what units were in place in S.A. for U.S. and S.A. by August 31, 1990.
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by molnibalage » January 15, 2009, 11:10:08 AM

I can send you the real OOB of Desert Storm from Stan Morse's book (Gulf Air War debrief).
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by derStef » January 15, 2009, 04:08:20 PM

molnibalage wrote:I can send you the real OOB of Desert Storm from Stan Morse's book (Gulf Air War debrief).
please make it downloadable for all here.... for example with mediafire link... please!

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 15, 2009, 04:34:56 PM

Please do!

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by derStef » January 15, 2009, 04:59:52 PM

Echo300 wrote:Please do!
Dude, you should do! :)



here is my ODS/OIF reference that i have collected so far:
derStef's ODS ref stuff:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2yfngknt1hz

contains:
Operation Desert Storm - Reference OOB pix
pdf's:
Operation Desert Storm - Combat platforms
Operation Desert Storm - Cost and performance of aircraft and munitions
Operation Desert Storm - Department of defence
Operation Desert Storm - Effectiveness of aircraft and munitions
Operation Desert Storm - Example figure
Operation Desert Storm - Mission
Operation Desert Storm - Nuclear experience
Operation Desert Storm - Objectives
Operation Desert Storm - Scope and methodology
Operation Desert Storm - Structure of air defence system
Operation Desert Storm - Target sensor technologies
Operation Desert Storm - Use of aircraft and munitions
Operation Desert Storm - Weight and type of effort





btw Snake Man, could you open a topic with a title like "Campaign OOB research and Theater Reference Stuff" for ervery theater here and make it a sticky? that should be place where all the Reference material should be shipped to, to get one pool of inforamtion, not a bit in every threat or topic.. thanks

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 16, 2009, 03:56:54 PM

derStef wrote:btw Snake Man, could you open a topic with a title like "Campaign OOB research and Theater Reference Stuff" for ervery theater here and make it a sticky? that should be place where all the Reference material should be shipped to, to get one pool of inforamtion, not a bit in every threat or topic.. thanks
Well in the absence of that, I'll post the Gulf War Air Power Survey here, instead.

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Pu ... /gwaps.htm

Snake Man, sorry for posting a link instead of quoting the necessary data, but there's a couple thousand pages there... :wink:

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Snake Man » January 16, 2009, 04:07:20 PM

derStef wrote:btw Snake Man, could you open a topic with a title like "Campaign OOB research and Theater Reference Stuff" for ervery theater here and make it a sticky? that should be place where all the Reference material should be shipped to, to get one pool of inforamtion, not a bit in every threat or topic.. thanks
There is already OOB topic.

Detailed OOB for SP2-ODS? and OOB for ODS-SP3.
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by derStef » January 16, 2009, 04:58:19 PM

Thanks for linking them up here, SM & Echo!

cheers
Stef

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 16, 2009, 06:38:49 PM

So I should post the info I find in one of those OOB topics? Thanks.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by icebrain » January 16, 2009, 07:24:42 PM

molnibalage wrote:
I especially like the idea about the hypothetical Iraq invasion of Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Storm, hypothetical). I'd have to look again at the ODS Saudi Arabia coverage but there might be enough major cities in Saudi Arabia to make this a very interesting scenario.
In this case will be reqiured a separated DB for this theater. IRL the F-15Es that time had only Mk-82/84 bombs and theoretically could use Mk-20 Rockeye (but testing releases weren't made! for the last one).
Actually, F-15Es employed LGBs (GBU-10/12). One even scored a kill on an airborne helicopter with a GBU-10.

more info: http://www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/navigat ... adouts.htm

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Snake Man » January 16, 2009, 08:52:18 PM

Echo300 wrote:So I should post the info I find in one of those OOB topics? Thanks.
I guess... the later, SP3 topic. If we open new OOB topic each time there is new Falcon 4 version/patch, we end up with dozens of topics ;)

But indeed it becomes a bit fragmented like this, SP2 and SP3 OOB topics, both which contain good stuff. Perhaps we need to open one single OOB topic, like merge these two topics and stick with it. Hmm, any ideas are welcome.
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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Echo300 » January 16, 2009, 11:22:13 PM

Snake Man wrote:
Echo300 wrote:So I should post the info I find in one of those OOB topics? Thanks.
I guess... the later, SP3 topic. If we open new OOB topic each time there is new Falcon 4 version/patch, we end up with dozens of topics ;)

But indeed it becomes a bit fragmented like this, SP2 and SP3 OOB topics, both which contain good stuff. Perhaps we need to open one single OOB topic, like merge these two topics and stick with it. Hmm, any ideas are welcome.
If I were you, I would sticky one research topic for each theater. All info (ORBATs, strategy, weapons in theater, etc.) pertaining to that theater could be put in there.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by toonces » February 13, 2010, 04:52:01 PM

I've been thinking a bit more about this theater as I've been reading more about Desert Storm (if you haven't read "Crusade", you should).

I keep thinking on Desert Storm. I know everyone is hot on the campaign, although the ground war in the real campaign was very limited. However, this doesn't have to be a show-stopper necessarily.

I am intrigued by the "air war only" type campaign, as I have been for a while now. I was reading the RP5 manual and they did a lot of investigation into how degrading supplies can impact the campaign. The problem is that I can't find anywhere where someone has actually done a step-by-step analysis of how a true attrition warfare-type air campaign degrades the enemy's supply/fuel. Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion I did on this is over on the FF5 beta forums, but the gist of it is that...wait, let me post that stuff here. Hold on...

[edit]

Ok, never mind. First, Demer is posted all over in my posts, and I don't have his permission to post his stuff. Second, it doesn't provide a lot of fidelity to the conversation.

My thoughts, in general, are to clean up the OOB some (air side only), but then script the .aii and .tri files such that the victory conditions are set to the player reaching a certain level of supply/fuel/infrastructure attrition. This isn't too far from "real-world" in that Desert Storm was primarily an air campaign. The player's job would be to manipulate the sliders such that the AI and himself flew an air campaign that accomplished a certain amount of attrition by campaign end.

Having tested the DS campaign briefly in FF4, the Allies achieve air superiority fairly rapidly. So, it really becomes a matter of degrading the IADS and then hitting all the infrastructure targets in a systematic manner.

Now, the problem a campaign like this poses is: 1) do we actually know enough about how supply works in Falcon to actually write a campaign like this? 2) is the terrain built properly such that supply can be degraded by hitting factories and plants?

Both aren't trivial questions. Assuming that hitting factories and plants will degrade supply/fuel, then the question is- are the factories/plants/etc placed into the DS terrain in such a manner that they "work" properly in the theater? This might be a purpose of the "parent" links discussed in another thread. Besides just giving an objective a "name", it also says which objectives interact with one another in some way; in this case, by providing supply to/from the parent entity. Think about it for a minute. How does a factory know who to give supply to? Is it a radius of miles? Is it by parent-child links? Does the supply have to be physically driven from one place to another?

There is a lot of stuff we can do with what we have, IF we can figure out how to manipulate the campaign to play like we want it to.

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Re: Campaign ideas incorporating ODS theater

Post by Snake Man » February 13, 2010, 06:38:01 PM

There has been talk previously about degrading enemy supply, but all that I can remember from those talks is that it doesn't work (not in PMC theaters but in F4 campaign engine itself).

Which forum and which topics this was discussed, I cant remember, sorry :)
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