ECM strength

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Geraki
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ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-05-19 13:49:22

which value from F4 browse change the F-16 Blk 52+ ECM strength?

I addition how can i make the MICA IR not to be so super and to ger IR lock from 20 miles and not from 60 miles?

Also which values change the M symbol to display or not in RWR?

Thanks in advance!!

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Re: ECM strength

Post by ccc » 2010-05-19 14:04:19

you may check zips folder, simdata zip, MISDATA folder, open mica.data for details.

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-05-20 07:45:59

ccc wrote:you may check zips folder, simdata zip, MISDATA folder, open mica.data for details.
Thanks CCC

and for ECM strength? which values must i change?

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-05-20 10:45:59

Changing the MICA is easier. Go to simdata, find the MICA IR's dat file. Open it with Wordpad There are two lines not too far from the beginning . Seeker type and something that I can't recall without seeing the file. The first determines the type of seeker. The second refers the ICD nuumber that you can modify with F4Browse. MICA IR's ICD is 58. My recommedation for range is about 40-48k instead 121913 feet. I have to say MICA IR is something that can't be modeled well. IRL can be launched against BVR target and after getting MCG and reaching the target the IR sensor can lock the target. In Falcon can be used as AIM-9X or AA-11. The missile IRL activates again its engine to provide TVC support at the terminal phase.

(I have to say almost all weapon is over modeled in Falcon.)

Be careful with ECM strength. Do you know how are modeled the EW? It has very serious effects. There are ECM modifiers in DB for each radar. If the target uses ECM the range of radar is modified. For most of radars the modifier is smaller then 1. This means if the ECM is active that scanning radar has lower range, the lock range is smaller. AIM-120's and other ARHs have slightly bigger than 1.

They are counts normally for radars if the ECM strength is 0 for target otherwise their values are meaningless. For ex. if you increase about 50-55 the ECM strenght it is enought to turn on the ECM and AIM-120C-7 is defeated all time Only problem that AI never uses ECM agains ARH missiles... It is not wise to chage ECM values if the rest of DB reamins unchanged. If you want to play with ECM strenght you should restrict certain ECM pod types for certain AC. Inthis case ECM stregth are virutally linked with specific ECM pods.
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-05-20 12:10:37

Thank you very mach for the Heads up....

i need to increase ECM strencth for HAF F-16Blk52+ w/cft and wo/cft ... the a/c has internal ECM ... do you know which values must i change to increase the ECM strength in order not to be "broken" if the bandit has altitute split grader than the HAF F-16 , and the brake of the HAF ECM could become at 15-20 milles instend of 30-40 which is now!!

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-05-20 20:29:19

. do you know which values must i change to increase the ECM strength in order not to be "broken" if the bandit has altitute split grader than the HAF F-16 , and the brake of the HAF ECM could become at 15-20 milles instend of 30-40 which is now!!
I don't understand this part. Can you say with different words? First rule of tweaking that you never do without testing. Because the code and used equatuion is unknown only way to understand the modeling in many areas the changen and testing. There is no other way. I know that I never set higher value than 16-18 in my Realis MOD for FF4. B-52H and special jammer AC had this ECM strength. Attention, the effieciency of stand off jamming is independent from ECM strengt and there is not any sign in your sensors. Check the RP5 manual how is modeled.

As I can remember in FF4 stand off jamming was buggy. EA-6B or EF-111 proteced AC that flew in the same package as the jammer AC. Against these AC the SAM battalions were weaker. Only problem if any other AC were near to this group they were as unprotected as without stand off jamming. I can guess this is the reason why don't use any of campaign them. I don't know what the status this issue in OF.
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Ed_1 » 2010-06-16 16:42:35

One caution on sensor data editing, In your example of micaIR it is IR#38 , I would recommend not editing 38 or anyone you want to edit as many of the IR sensor data is shared. Just do a "add item" in F4browse on 38, which will add a new sensor data entry . Then edit this one and in the simdata/missdata/micaIR.dat change the seeker version to the new IR number you added. This way your not going to mess up another weapon/IR sensor that might be sharing #38 .
Unless you want to go through whole DB to make sure its not shared .

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-06-17 07:14:59

Mica EM and R-77 uses the RCD 38 but Mica IR has unique ICD, it does not share with other weapos as I can remember.
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Ed_1 » 2010-06-17 12:53:16

molnibalage wrote:Mica EM and R-77 uses the RCD 38 but Mica IR has unique ICD, it does not share with other weapons as I can remember.
I wasn't saying IR38 was shared (I didn't check) but many sensors are shared some even hardcoded (not seen in F4browse). It just much safer to add an entry then edit one especially if your not real familiar with whole DB an code .

Edit:
Well it may depend on version but sp4+ have IR38 shared with AA10D and Mica IR . I worked on reducing and adding sensor data but there still a bit to clear up so no sharing , this goes to SP4 and lesser amount in AF which we added more sensors .

While I don't recommend messing with radar/ECM data as you have to view it from an overall viewpoint. You can alter ECM strength in VCD data field (ECM strength) , though this might only work on certain exe's .
My info would pertain to data used from SP4 base ,that be all SP4 versions and probably up to OF and AF . I have no idea on FF stuff .

Really need to specify what version cause each are different .

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-06-18 06:44:31

In my Korea '80 I will plan do eliminate all "sensor sharing". :)
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Skwabie » 2010-07-19 08:37:42

I don't think ECM strength can be changed in OF.... I have tried changing the ECM strength for a mig29 and I can still burn thru at ~20nm.

As for MICA IR, it's currently a super missile indeed (goes "pitbull" @20nm and no warning whatsoever....) But command+IR guidance simply isn't there. F4AF has it tho.

(i'd LOOOOVE to be wrong 'bout these, do tell if found otherwise!!)

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-07-19 10:58:32

I will examine. What did you used and against what?
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Skwabie » 2010-07-19 13:41:46

just a F-16C (any version they have the same radar) against a mig29S...

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-07-21 06:45:30

Skwabie wrote:just a F-16C (any version they have the same radar) against a mig29S...
And what weapon is used by MiG-29S? In FF when I set about 50 the ECM strenght it was simply enough turn on the jammer to defeat the incoming R-77 (AA-12) and was also enought to kill the STT radar lock of a Su-27 or Mig-29 if it used R-27R (AA-10A). My guess you did not fly the F-16C that you modified. I can't see any reson that prevents setting different ECM.

One small note. Between 0 and 4-5 values the ECM seems to me weaker and ineffective! I don't know why. If you set 8 or higher the effectivness of ECM will be stronger. Be careful the effect is very far from linear. It is easier test against SAMs for ex. agains an Hawk battalion. With defult settings the ECM does not brake the STT lock. Increase the ECM strengt and you will find the value that kills the STT at different distances.

I still did not had time to test.
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-07-21 09:19:03

I will try for HAF F-16 to increase the ECM strength to 8 and tested .....

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Re: ECM strength

Post by molnibalage » 2010-07-21 14:15:57

Geraki wrote:I will try for HAF F-16 to increase the ECM strength to 8 and tested .....
This has only VERY slight effect. This staement is based on FF's tweak. Here is an example.

I set ther radar range for SA-2 about 150k and ECM modifier value about 0.55. With default value in MolnyFalcon the ECM prevens the launch about 13 nm as I can remember. If you set to 16 - with the mentioned radar data - the ECM penetration distance is changes to 8-9 miles as I can remember and 10-11 nm if you set 8.

The ECM is a big black hole. I'm not sure thaz if you set 0 only the ECM modifier counts. One thing is sure, if you set bigger than 4 regardless of ECM modifier the ECM burn trough capability is derceased dramatically. As I have said, if you set 50 you are literally invincible to any radar guided system with deafult modeling values (radar data). What is the problem? I cannot forseen the result against different radars that have different radar range and ECM modifier data. This is why so long tha making of MolnyFalcon. Everything have to be carefully balanced.
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Re: ECM strength

Post by Skwabie » 2010-07-21 14:42:55

Edit!!!

I stand corrected!!! Apparently a config variable was preventing AI from a normal/persistent jammer behavior and caused my previous tests to go wrong...

The ECM strength has a impact on the burn thru range indeed. With a pair of Mig29S of ECM strength @ 120 BVR is significantly more difficult because even wez denial doesn't do too much good.

Although I won't mess with this stuff and leave it as a good to know thing :wink:

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Ed_1 » 2010-08-02 19:55:21

Skwabie wrote:I don't think ECM strength can be changed in OF.... I have tried changing the ECM strength for a mig29 and I can still burn thru at ~20nm.

As for MICA IR, it's currently a super missile indeed (goes "pitbull" @20nm and no warning whatsoever....) But command+IR guidance simply isn't there. F4AF has it tho.

(i'd LOOOOVE to be wrong 'bout these, do tell if found otherwise!!)
In AF the mica IR and AA10TE we have modeled command +IR seeker , it will fly to area of radar lock and try and lock once in range if target is still there .
You will get no radar lock warning , we could of set it so you do but I don't think you would, just like aim120 .

I do think the seeker might need some work (to good) .

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-11-17 13:55:41

Ed_1 wrote:
Skwabie wrote:I don't think ECM strength can be changed in OF.... I have tried changing the ECM strength for a mig29 and I can still burn thru at ~20nm.

As for MICA IR, it's currently a super missile indeed (goes "pitbull" @20nm and no warning whatsoever....) But command+IR guidance simply isn't there. F4AF has it tho.

(i'd LOOOOVE to be wrong 'bout these, do tell if found otherwise!!)
In AF the mica IR and AA10TE we have modeled command +IR seeker , it will fly to area of radar lock and try and lock once in range if target is still there .
You will get no radar lock warning , we could of set it so you do but I don't think you would, just like aim120 .

I do think the seeker might need some work (to good) .
Any news how decrease mica ir strenrth e.g from pitbull to 35 nm to be 25 nm ..or can i point the head to follow many flares as a target? which file must i change?

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Ed_1 » 2010-11-17 16:05:13

Geraki wrote:
Ed_1 wrote:
Skwabie wrote:I don't think ECM strength can be changed in OF.... I have tried changing the ECM strength for a mig29 and I can still burn thru at ~20nm.

As for MICA IR, it's currently a super missile indeed (goes "pitbull" @20nm and no warning whatsoever....) But command+IR guidance simply isn't there. F4AF has it tho.

(i'd LOOOOVE to be wrong 'bout these, do tell if found otherwise!!)
In AF the mica IR and AA10TE we have modeled command +IR seeker , it will fly to area of radar lock and try and lock once in range if target is still there .
You will get no radar lock warning , we could of set it so you do but I don't think you would, just like aim120 .

I do think the seeker might need some work (to good) .
Any news how decrease mica ir strenrth e.g from pitbull to 35 nm to be 25 nm ..or can i point the head to follow many flares as a target? which file must i change?
The mica IR seeker in AF is sensor ICD 38 , its set to 109.368 ft which is 18nm or so. Since both AA10D nad mica IR is modeled now as command+ IR it should be set around 60,000 as it was set high previously to support its higher range (was only way possible at time w/o command guidance added)

The seeker is probably similar to AA11 , I don't think many IR missile seekers can do more than 10nm or so, unless much newer tech is used .

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-11-17 18:10:36

In OF the mica ICD number is?

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Ed_1 » 2010-11-17 18:27:10

Geraki wrote:In OF the mica ICD number is?
its probably same 38 as OF is based off SP4.2 data.

Just open the missile file in simdata.zip(misdata/micair.dat) and find this lines

0 # Seeker Type (0 means its a IR seeker type )
38 # Seeker Version (this is the pointer for ICD data in f4browse )
0 # Display

Edit: if you do this in OF then you will not have long range on the micair or aa10D if its also a shared ICD 38 . I only recommend this for AF .
Last edited by Ed_1 on 2010-11-18 12:27:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ECM strength

Post by Geraki » 2010-11-18 08:57:19

Ed_1 wrote:
Geraki wrote:In OF the mica ICD number is?
its probably same 38 as OF is based off SP4.2 data.

Just open the missile file in simdata.zip(misdata/micair.dat) and find this lines

8 # Seeker Type (0 means its a IR seeker type )
38 # Seeker Version (this is the pointer for ICD data in f4browse )
0 # Display

Edit: if you do this in OF then you will not have long range on the micair or aa10D if its also a shared ICD 38 . I only recommend this for AF .
Thank you very mach Ed_1...

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