Falcon Versions versus Editing - the mess sorted out

[Snake Man]

Okay this is hopefully coming to be a clear cut topic to sort out the mess of different Falcon versions and the editing of these. So at the offical note we have the two stock Falcon 4 versions we buy from the stores:

Falcon 4.0 - December 1998, Microprose
Released back in the day 1998 with patches labeling it to v1.08. This was the major workhorse and backbone to F4 editing.
Homepage - ?

Falcon 4.0 Allied Force - June 2005, Leadpursuit
Released 2005 (as v1.0.1.50613) with some ex-community members like Codec and Washout who started to work for this company for money. Current patch labels it to v1.0.9 (Dec '06). Supposed to have some added features, new graphics and more stable multiplayer etc.
Homepage - www.lead-pursuit.com

Community editing:

SuperPAK v4.2
For original F4. SuperPAK or SP4.
Homepage - ?
Download filefront

SuperPak 5
The cancelled SP5 ViperOps development. This was a true exe editing with numerous new features and fixes. Last exe's were locked to specific computer hardware ID's so they could not be used elsewhere. Not released to public.
Homepage - doesn't have

FreeFalcon 3.1 / Red Viper
FreeFalcon (FF) was originally a patch that brought together patches that were otherwise available for SP3, and put them in one place. FF is EXE edits done after some BMS EXE aftermath. Latest version is v3.1 and v4 is the "Red Viper" on the torrent networks.
Homepage - www.freefalcon.com
Download red viper in piratebay

Cobra exe
Apparently a patch; PATCH FF3.1.1 and Cobra 1.1.1. Cobra was an exe that was based on BMS ver. 1.03, and was made for FF3.
Homepage - www.freefalcon.com

OpenFalcon
EXE development, but some beta version was leaked and after that operations (at least publicly) stopped. The leaked installer can be found as torrent - Open Falcon 4.0 Full Install
And 4.3 version also, here Open Falcon 4.3 and Open Falcon 4.3 (dont ask me why there is two identicals).
Homepage - down

BMS exe
Quote from trackir site BMS 2.0 exe is installed as an addon to SP4. Free Falcon 3 ("FF3") includes a BMS 2.0 exe in it's installer (so you if you're running FF3 these directions are for you!). Cobra 1 (a free add on for Free Falcon) works the same as the BMS 2.0 method..
Seems to be that some BMS exe is forbidden by atari (some copyright stuff), so is this exe still available from the net if you know the right people or not?
Homepage - ?

Anything else I've missed? Please fill in all and any information you guys have, especially links to official web sites and so on.

So theater wise this means the following;

Falcon 4.0 1998
We can freely use the utils available from PMC Tactical into the "Falcon 4.0" 1998 version with SP4-5 as usual. But question remains, is SP4 still rocking or not? What about freefalcon and others?
Editing
Pros: All utilities are designed for use with this. SP4/5/FF works with this. Many many theaters done.
Cons: Basic good old F4 casual CTD's now and then etc. Nothing special.

Falcon 4 Allied Force 2006
No support for developers and some datafiles are even changed so TacEdit will not work at all. Latest LxNormalFix util from BaldEagle fixes the terrain shadowing problem. TerrainviewLg works 90% with AF terrains (AF uses all 4 byte terrains).
Editing
Pros: More bugs fixed and overall tweaks. One could assume further patches etc in the future. More stable than original F4.
Cons: None of the editing tools work with this. AF developers discourage editing. SP4/5/FF wont work with this.

---
Please post any information what you have to add, or to correct from the above. I just want to create one clear topic which covers the whole range of this F4 mess.

[Sherlock]

F4Browse will work with AF but you have to switch out the Falcon4.vcd and the Falcon4.pd files with SP4.2 files of the same names. Then all the data is readable. However, switching out the files means that nothing is modable for the vehicles themselves (because of using the old .VCD file). If you don't switch out the files from SP4.2 you will get gibberish text.

TacEdit will not work at all on the AF .cam, .tac or .trn files. They are version 83 and TacEdit V2.46 will only work on up to V73 files. You can, however, edit SP4.2 version files and use them in AF. They perform just like the "organic" version. You do have to jump through some hoops to find out the new squadron IDs of new aircraft (like the SU-27SM) that LP added (that were not in SP4.2) but that isn't impossible.

The terrain shadowing problem was due to LP changing the X3 (ForceFog) terrain normal value to range from 0 to 255 (instead of the SP3/SP4 range of 0 to 63). Also, they changed the reference point for the angle that was calculated for this value so it was the reverse of the previous version. Note: The latest LxNormalFix.exe from BaldEagle fixes this problem using a new commandline parameter especially for terrains for AF.

TerrainviewLg works 90% with AF terrains (AF uses all 4 byte terrains). The only problem is the aforementioned X3 calculation is performed incorrectly because it is based on SP3/SP4 terrain normals calculation method and not the newer AF method. Don't use the "calculate normals" command on AF terrains, use instead the latest LxNormalFix from BaldEagle tools with AF specific commandline parameter.

To the best of my knowledge, FF mods are incompatible with AF since all terrain textures in AF are .pcx based and all vehicle textures are .bmp based. FF uses .DDS textures exclusively for terrain and vehicles, I believe.

The Lead Pursuit site link is the only "official" AF site that I know about. Unless you mean forums like Frugals, etc.

[T_Rex]

FreeFalcon
no info.
Homepage - www.freefalcon.com

Cobra exe
Apparently a patch; PATCH FF3.1.1 and Cobra 1.1.1
Homepage - www.freefalcon.com

FF was originally a patch that brought together patches that were otherwise available for SP3, and put them in one place.

It was made up primarily of skinners from ViperWear and SwissFlight, and some data people who were not part of the Unified Team.

Cobra was an exe that was based on BMS ver. 1.03, and was made for FF3.



(Obviously, that's the short form.)

[Snake Man]

Thanks for the replies guys, first post updated. Do you know any more detailed info for the SuperPAK 4 situation like web page, download links and official version etc?

Of course we are still gathering information, but the situation to me at least dont look anymore clearer at this point heh. But we'll continue to learn

The basic "stupid" question would be, is Falcon 4.0 and SP4 still the most suitable platform to edit stuff, or does Falcon 4 Allied Force beat it with new fixes/features even though the developers aren't supporting the community in any way?

[T_Rex]

The basic "stupid" question would be, is Falcon 4.0 and SP4 still the most suitable platform to edit stuff, or does Falcon 4 Allied Force beat it with new fixes/features even though the developers aren't supporting the community in any way?

SP4/FF would be the most edit-friendly.

LP took active steps to keep people from modding things, like encrypting previously unencrypted files (from what I understand).

It isn't that LP isn't supporting community dev, they actively discourage it.

[Snake Man]

LP took active steps to keep people from modding things, like encrypting previously unencrypted files (from what I understand).

I know this is nit-picking, but I think actually the term encrypting is false. Its the same false impression people have in OFP scene that the "Binarize" util will eNcRyPt the files, it doesn't, it just packs them to more optimized state. I guess Codec just changed the data format a bit so now the old utils of course cannot read it anymore.

I cannot speculate why he did that for programming reasons, who knows perhaps it was just to make the old utils obsolete. Who knows.

It isn't that LP isn't supporting community dev, they actively discourage it.

Heh yeah, sad situation. Wonder what makes great persons like the good old Codec and such to do things like this... oh no, I know it... its MONEY, sigh.

I dont want to sound angry or such, its just that things the way they are now, its not the free and warm welcome editing environment I'm familiar with. But hey, who knows one day F4AF devs might just release brand new versions of the utils for us hard working community guys.

Or is it that we simply got spoiled rotten with the leaked Falcon 4.0 sources and the utilities that Codec created back in the early days that now nothing is good enough especially if some company is limiting our freedom?

Nah, back to the topic, how to sort out the mess, not figure out WHY it is mess

[Sherlock]

LP took active steps to keep people from modding things, like encrypting previously unencrypted files (from what I understand).

I know this is nit-picking, but I think actually the term encrypting is false. Its the same false impression people have in OFP scene that the "Binarize" util will eNcRyPt the files, it doesn't, it just packs them to more optimized state. I guess Codec just changed the data format a bit so now the old utils of course cannot read it anymore.

I cannot speculate why he did that for programming reasons, who knows perhaps it was just to make the old utils obsolete. Who knows.

It isn't that LP isn't supporting community dev, they actively discourage it.

Heh yeah, sad situation. Wonder what makes great persons like the good old Codec and such to do things like this... oh no, I know it... its MONEY, sigh.

I dont want to sound angry or such, its just that things the way they are now, its not the free and warm welcome editing environment I'm familiar with. But hey, who knows one day F4AF devs might just release brand new versions of the utils for us hard working community guys.

Or is it that we simply got spoiled rotten with the leaked Falcon 4.0 sources and the utilities that Codec created back in the early days that now nothing is good enough especially if some company is limiting our freedom?

Nah, back to the topic, how to sort out the mess, not figure out WHY it is mess

You are correct Snake Man regarding the mis-named "encrypted" files. The file format was changed to BINARY for storage purposes I would image (it's more efficient) but they are definitely not encrypted (e.g., cockpit files).

As to the other point...time will tell I guess.

[T_Rex]

I know this is nit-picking, but I think actually the term encrypting is false.

Fair enough. We can agree on "unreadable with the common tools"?

Nah, back to the topic, how to sort out the mess, not figure out WHY it is mess

hehehe

Yeah, and it is probably a bit of both. Spoiling on our part and desire for control on their part.

I believe a French group associated with CheckSix designed a mod-integrator package for FF. Modman or something like that. Might be worth looking into also.

And SM - it is nice to see you back in F4 land.

[Sherlock]

And SM - it is nice to see you back in F4 land.

I want to add a hearty "AYE" and second that comment!

[Sherlock]

The basic "stupid" question would be, is Falcon 4.0 and SP4 still the most suitable platform to edit stuff, or does Falcon 4 Allied Force beat it with new fixes/features even though the developers aren't supporting the community in any way?

SP4/FF would be the most edit-friendly.

LP took active steps to keep people from modding things, like encrypting previously unencrypted files (from what I understand).

It isn't that LP isn't supporting community dev, they actively discourage it.

At this point in time I have to agree with T_Rex. AF is not as easy to edit as SP 4 or FF. This is because a new generation of editing tools has not been created to take on AF yet. Based on my investigation, the internals of AF still bear an uncanny resemblance to Falcon 4.0. Yes, there have been exe changes and there have been data file changes. These changes would have to be decoded but my educated guess is that about 80-90% of what was doable in SP4 is still applicable to AF (from a file format perspective only). As proof, the SP theaters run in AF (with the appropriate changes, of course).

[Snake Man]

And SM - it is nice to see you back in F4 land.

Thanks.

While the jury is still out if I ever take upon editing itself, I'm 100% going to support the Falcon 4 (theater) scene by running the PMC TFW site + forum and maintaining the tutorials if there is any changes we need to make.

Its certainly is nice to hang out now on "my working environment" same time on OFP, ArmA and good old Falcon 4 where the hardcore stuff really started. As you guys might know I was not even logging on to the old F4 site + ubb forum for months (if not year) at time. Right now we all stick together here, which is so very nice

Anyways, who knows where this leads when I finally come to understand what all the new and various F4 versions mean.

[Snake Man]

And FreeFalcon is based on requiring the original Falcon 4.0 cd to install (of which no more are made any longer).

Ehh sorry I dont understand... is FreeFalcon an new code written to an new EXE file?

How come it requires original Falcon 4.0 CD? Whats the point of doing that?

Others like Open Falcon/SP3/SP4/SP4.2 are no longer supported and are "has beens" (again, IMHO).

Yes that much I gathered. SP4(.2) was the last official F4UT release and then all went downhill. Even F4UT web site is no longer online, was it f4ut.frugalsworld.com right? What is the point of taking the site down without even providing a re-direct link to somewhere to explain the situation?

So the only two installs that people should be spending their time on (again IMHO)...are FF and AF.

Thanks for the very clear answer, it was exactly what I was looking for with this topic

And, unless FF can work something out with Atari/Graphsim/LP they are catering to a vary limited audience since copies of F4.0 are becoming more and more scare with every passing year.

This relates to my first question which is why FF would need to make deals with LP, but I think you'll allready have answered by the time you get to quote this... so anyways. I cant wait to hear the story about FF.

So again, IMHO, Snake Man I wouldn't spend your valuable time on anything other than SP4.2 (because of it being the roots for AF) , Allied Force and Freefalcon 3.1.

Yes but there you have three different areas, stock default good old SP4, the present time offspring FF and the brand new sim-in-shops F4AF.

So if we simplify its either (SP4/FF) or F4AF. If we cut out F4AF, then I have to ask whats the difference of SP4 versus FF besides that FF is developed currently with active web site + forum? Have FF made any other edits than data edits (the already mentioned mystical CD requirement), do they significantly improve the SPx series? Any theater related improvements to object databases and such? New aircrafts? Every and All tools work with FF? Oh ok I stop now...

G2Interactive never delivered anything on Viper Ops after the exe leak and has, apparently, ceased any operations
So IMHO VO is a dead end as well and would be a waste of your time

Yes thats already known

Open Falcon is in pretty much the same situation. Leaked to the public; it was a beta version; the team has disbanded and the leaked version is not supported period.

Okay can you please be more specific, if you have the time and will please post all your information about OpenFalcon here including links or what not. Dont be afraid to post "warez" information as I got the sense from Frugals forums that there was something like that going on with OpenFalcon... I dont mind, I just want to know, feel free to post any information you got, you get no beef from PMC.

Wow now we are getting somewhere with this topic, keep it up! 8)

[Sherlock]

Ehh sorry I dont understand... is FreeFalcon an new code written to an new EXE file?

It is a new exe and I think T_Rex gave the quick low down above. It started out as a collection of the patches for SP4. It has "evolved" into a major player once BMS left the scene (with the addition of the Cobra exe).

How come it requires original Falcon 4.0 CD? Whats the point of doing that?

I don't think they could get around the legal implications of trying to offer up the Falcon 4.0 files without a legal license. So they had to remain a "patch" for the original Falcon 4.0 (or at least that is my understanding; perhaps T_Rex can stop by an provide additional legal insight). So in many ways FF is like SP3/SP4.

Yes that much I gathered. SP4(.2) was the last official F4UT release and then all went downhill. Even F4UT web site is no longer online, was it f4ut.frugalsworld.com right? What is the point of taking the site down without even providing a re-direct link to somewhere to explain the situation?

Actually, I believe the website was lost accidently when a crash occurred at Frugals World. Frugal was trying to keep it up for historic reasons but it was lost accidently. That's all I've been able to pick up. Others may know more.

Thanks for the very clear answer, it was exactly what I was looking for with this topic

Your welcome...I try

This relates to my first question which is why FF would need to make deals with LP, but I think you'll allready have answered by the time you get to quote this... so anyways. I cant wait to hear the story about FF.

I'm not the one to get the entire FF story from. T_Rex would be a better source than me. I don't use FF.

Yes but there you have three different areas, stock default good old SP4, the present time offspring FF and the brand new sim-in-shops F4AF.

OK, the reason I said SP4.2 at this time was because AF is very heavily based on the SP4 Database as well as the other SP files. And the SP4 tools (as well as files like the .cam file) can be used in AF to mod it and make theaters for it. I think, in time, the old SP tools such as TacEdit, F4Browse, etc., can be replaced with AF compatible tools. The files used in AF are not that different (coding wise) from those used in SP4.2. It's just a matter of time, perserverance and the right help

So if we simplify its either (SP4/FF) or F4AF. If we cut out F4AF, then I have to ask whats the difference of SP4 versus FF besides that FF is developed currently with active web site + forum? Have FF made any other edits than data edits (the already mentioned mystical CD requirement), do they significantly improve the SPx series? Any theater related improvements to object databases and such? New aircrafts? Every and All tools work with FF? Oh ok I stop now...

Pretty much everything you mention FF has done. They have already adapted the SP series of theaters (or most of the top ones) and made them compatible with FF. They have many, many 3D model edits/ additions in the database. Yes, new aircraft. The major difference between FF and SP4/AF is the texture type. FF uses .dds textures for both skins and terrain while SP4/AF uses .pcx terrain textures. and .bmp skin textures. There may be other major differences I am unaware of though since I don't run FF. Again, T_Rex is probably the best source for detailed info on FF.

Okay can you please be more specific, if you have the time and will please post all your information about OpenFalcon here including links or what not. Dont be afraid to post "warez" information as I got the sense from Frugals forums that there was something like that going on with OpenFalcon... I dont mind, I just want to know, feel free to post any information you got, you get no beef from PMC.

Open Falcon was developed by a group of developers affiliated with the 87th StrayDogs VFS. It was to be the end-all, be-all of the Falcon 4 line (for community development work anyway) IMHO. FF may have other views on this. The pictures at Frugals and the videos that have been posted on YouTube verify that it looks very very nice. The terrain looks good, the explosions are outstanding (for a graphics engine originally built in 1996!) and the plane models and skins are to die for! The beta that was leaked in 2006 is available via bittorrent only. One source that I know of that I got the bittorrent link from was www.piratebay.org. The beta version that was leaked is said to be a DEBUGGER version of the code and so has some issues relating to performance reported with it. I have d/l the bittorrent but I have not installed it nor have I flown it. (been too busy making/modding theaters!)

Wow now we are getting somewhere with this topic, keep it up! 8)

I'll sleep on it and see if I can come up with any other info. Also, I am sure that some of the others may have different viewpoints on some things so listening to their inputs would be beneficial.

[Snake Man]

It is a new exe and I think T_Rex gave the quick low down above. It started out as a collection of the patches for SP4. It has "evolved" into a major player once BMS left the scene (with the addition of the Cobra exe).

I never had idea that someone else did some exe work after SP5. So how does the FF play out in the scene, did they have permission to do coding for F4 by some company who ever holds the copyrights (at that point) or did they just do it anyways?

Has the exe coding stopped now?

I don't think they could get around the legal implications of trying to offer up the Falcon 4.0 files without a legal license. So they had to remain a "patch" for the original Falcon 4.0

No I meant that does FF require Falcon 4.0 original CD to be in the drive when you play?

Hehe of course you need the basic stock default Falcon 4 to play one of these patches

Actually, I believe the website was lost accidently when a crash occurred at Frugals World. Frugal was trying to keep it up for historic reasons but it was lost accidently.

Ouch, big accident for big site like that. Never heard of backups I assume

3D model edits/ additions in the database. Yes, new aircraft. The major difference between FF and SP4/AF is the texture type. FF uses .dds textures for both skins and terrain

Yeah so obviously they had to do some exe edits for that then. .dds format, never heard of that, is it any good? What you use to edit them?

Open Falcon was developed by a group of developers affiliated with the 87th StrayDogs VFS. It was to be the end-all, be-all of the Falcon 4 line

Heh I got out of the F4 scene just in time, it was even more mess than I thought. So how many damned exe edits we have now; SP5, FreeFalcon, OpenFalcon... anyone else?

FF may have other views on this.

Ah, I see some competition/flamewar fighting thingy going on, yes?

The beta that was leaked in 2006 is available via bittorrent only. One source that I know of that I got the bittorrent link from was www.piratebay.org.

Apparently its OpenFalcon 4.0 Full Install this one?

I downloaded it but haven't checked out yet. So this is another exe edit version then. I grabbed the readme just now and it says this:

Code: Select all

			#####################			
			#                   #
			# Open Falcon Setup #
			#                   #			
			#####################

Contents:
I.	Introduction/Overview
II.	Installing Open Falcon from scratch ("The Dance")
III.	Updating Open Falcon with a new Update
IV.	Installation problems

I.	Introduction/Overview
-----------------------------
The history of Falcon 4.0 shows that new patches and updates come out all the time. Most of them have to go on top of another patch which makes the process of installing all available patches long and difficult.

To make a Falconeer's life easier, a new type of installer has been created. The Open Falcon Installer/Updater will make it easy to install new updates or "dance" with just a few clicks. The only thing you have to do is to keep your Open Falcon Setup folder in a safe place.


II.	Installing Open Falcon from scratch ("The Dance")
---------------------------------------------------------
This section applies to users who wish to make a new install of Falcon 4.0 with Open Falcon and those who wish to reinstall a.k.a. "redance".

Preparing Open Falcon Setup (you only have to do this ONCE!):
1. Extract "Open_Falcon_Beta_4.0.rar" to a safe place on your hard drive. This will create a new Folder called "Open Falcon Setup" at the destination you specified. It's STRONGLY RECOMMENDED NOT TO DELETE this folder because it is needed for future updates.

If you already have extracted all existing updates, skip this step:
Integrating all update packages into Open Falcon Setup: (do this step every time you get a new update)
1. Extract the update rar file into your "Open Falcon Setup" folder overwriting existing files.

Step-by-step installation instructions:
1. If you want to reinstall, simply uninstall and delete your existing install of Falcon 4.0.
2. Install Falcon 4.0 from your CD to any location on your hard drive.
3. Installation of your local 1.07 patch should no longer be necessary.
4. Make sure you extracted all available update files into your "Open Falcon Setup" folder (in sequential order: 4.1, then 4.2 etc.).
5. Browse to your "Open Falcon Setup" folder and run "Installer.exe". (This is the Open Falcon installation program.)
6. The installer window will show you all the packages that are available to the installer. Required packages must be installed, you can install optional packages at your discretion. Optional packages can also be installed later on with "Updater.exe".
7. When you've made your selections, press the "Install" button to start installation of Open Falcon.
8. At the end of the install process, the Open Falcon config editor will be launched. Be sure that the path points to "<your>\F4-BMS.exe".
9. Browse through the configuration tree and select your prefered patches.
10. When you're done, hit apply. Click "OK", then "Exit" to leave the config editor.
11. Now you can close the Open Falcon Installer ("Close" button).
12. To run Open Falcon, simply use the "OF 1.0" icon that was created on your desktop.


III.	Updating Open Falcon with a new Update
----------------------------------------------
This section applies to users with an existing install of Falcon 4.0 which has been installed and/or updated by the Open Falcon Installer/Updater.
Updates to Open Falcon are named like this: "Open_Falcon_Beta_4.X.rar" (where X is a number greater than 0)
Your install must be updated to x-1 before you'll be able to install the new update.

Update instructions:
1. Your "Open Falcon Setup" folder must contain the base packages as well as all the previous updates extracted in sequential order.
2. Extract the new update file "Open_Falcon_Beta_4.X.rar" to your "Open Falcon Setup" folder (overwriting existing files).
3. Run "Updater.exe" located in your "Open Falcon" folder to update your current install.


IV.	Installation problems
-----------------------------
If for some reason you run into problems installing, feel free to contact me in the Open Falcon forum and I'll try to help you.


Happy dancing!
Blueprint

Who's this Blueprint guy? Is he one of the developers of OpenFalcon or the guy who leaked it or?

The beta version that was leaked is said to be a DEBUGGER version of the code and so has some issues relating to performance reported with it.

So what happened after the leak, did all of the OF gang got scared and run away or why didn't they continue?

[T_Rex]

Ehh sorry I dont understand... is FreeFalcon an new code written to an new EXE file?

How come it requires original Falcon 4.0 CD? Whats the point of doing that?

heheh

Wow - you have been out of touch.

FF3 included a new exe, based on the BMS 1.03/2.0 exe, called Cobra. It requires the original F4 CD because some of the files are necessary, and it is a good way to make sure someone has a current install of F4.

What is the point of taking the site down without even providing a re-direct link to somewhere to explain the situation?

Well, most of the UT guys (who didn't go on to form LP) formed OpenFalcon. Their site was around, but may be down now, because their version was leaked without permission.

So the only two installs that people should be spending their time on (again IMHO)...are FF and AF.

Thanks for the very clear answer, it was exactly what I was looking for with this topic

Well, I think OF is still a viable option - some people really enjoy it. But, it has problems on some systems, since it is still a beta work.

This relates to my first question which is why FF would need to make deals with LP, but I think you'll allready have answered by the time you get to quote this... so anyways. I cant wait to hear the story about FF.

hehehe

Is your phnet email addy still good? "The story of FF" could take awhile.

As for LP, they've made it clear that they would appreciate it if no one kept modding old F4.

Have FF made any other edits than data edits (the already mentioned mystical CD requirement), do they significantly improve the SPx series? Any theater related improvements to object databases and such? New aircrafts? Every and All tools work with FF? Oh ok I stop now...

hehehe

"Significant" improvement is in the eye of the beholder.

I think we've made improvements. And we have a dedicated area for theater development, although it is rather slow.

If you make an FF login, I'll be sure to give you access.

We also have an "Open Development" section with access to all the tools that we know of that work.
http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=21

Wow now we are getting somewhere with this topic, keep it up! 8)

hehehe

Tip of the iceberg, old friend....

[T_Rex]

I never had idea that someone else did some exe work after SP5. So how does the FF play out in the scene, did they have permission to do coding for F4 by some company who ever holds the copyrights (at that point) or did they just do it anyways?

Remember Hustler? He worked a deal with a group called BMS (Jammer and Cobracab basically) and the licenseholder G2i, for BMS to do code work. In exchange for the code work, BMS could release exes for free.

So, there was permission.

A few of the BMS coders (not Jammer or Cobracab) basically used some of BMS' code for a new exe called Cobra. That was used in FF3 and some later patches.

It is an open question whether there was "permission" at that point. After LP came onto the stage, it was also unclear whether there was any "permission".

Clearly, OF kept working on the exe.

No I meant that does FF require Falcon 4.0 original CD to be in the drive when you play?

Oh no - it just requires that you install from the CD, then install FF3 over it. You don't have to physically have the CD in when you play.

Yeah so obviously they had to do some exe edits for that then. .dds format, never heard of that, is it any good? What you use to edit them?

There are tools to convert in Photoshop and other programs. It is basically an nVidia format, I think. It has high compression, and an alpha channel for transparency.

Each skin is externalized by the skin number. So, to change a skin, you just drop the new .dds into the terrdata\objects\koreaobj folder.

Ah, I see some competition/flamewar fighting thingy going on, yes?

hehehe probably not.

Most OF and FF people get along reasonably well. A few years ago we started telling people to fly what they enjoy. Flames reduced drastically after that.

So what happened after the leak, did all of the OF gang got scared and run away or why didn't they continue?

Several of them were just mad at all the betrayals.

Really, OF/UT got the worse end of just about every betrayal over the years. I can understand the frustration.

[Sherlock]

EDIT: Ok, T_Rex was posting at the same time as me (see his post above). He knows more about FF then I ever will so I defer to his answers on FF related questions that you asked....

I never had idea that someone else did some exe work after SP5. So how does the FF play out in the scene, did they have permission to do coding for F4 by some company who ever holds the copyrights (at that point) or did they just do it anyways?

Has the exe coding stopped now?

No. The latest released version of FF is 3.1. They have been working on FF4 for some time now. But release is iffy right now because Lead Pursuit exists now and LP has said they will actively protect their IP rights.

No I meant that does FF require Falcon 4.0 original CD to be in the drive when you play?

I think so, but I don't know for sure. I don't use FF and never have loaded it up.

Yeah so obviously they had to do some exe edits for that then. .dds format, never heard of that, is it any good? What you use to edit them?

I've never worked with .dds myself, but it appears to be pretty good. It's got a lot more going for it than .pcx because it can do 24 bit color (unlike .pcx)..dds format is just another graphics format like .bmp, .pcx, .tga, etc. It is highly compressed file format. Adobe Photoshop is one of the common programs used for them.

Heh I got out of the F4 scene just in time, it was even more mess than I thought. So how many damned exe edits we have now; SP5, FreeFalcon, OpenFalcon... anyone else?

You keep talking about SP5, but no one has it as far as I know. Is that the leaked VO exe? I've never seen it available anywhere and I didn't get my nickname "Sherlock" because I stand on the corner and can't find anything!

SP4.2
FF w/ Cobra
OF
AF
BMS20

That's all I am aware of that are available

Ah, I see some competition/flamewar fighting thingy going on, yes?

There is a certain amount of rivalry that goes on. Not bad between OF and FF. They just have pride in their own creations. That's all.

Apparently its OpenFalcon 4.0 Full Install this one?

Yep. That's it.

Who's this Blueprint guy? Is he one of the developers of OpenFalcon or the guy who leaked it or?

Blueprint is one of the developers of OF

So what happened after the leak, did all of the OF gang got scared and run away or why didn't they continue?

Not sure if they got scared or not; But from the outside, looking in (and reading the posts at Frugals), it would appear they were in fear of legal action from Atari\Graphsim\LP so they shut down their website, shut down their forums, and they say that they've disbanded all developement work on OF.

[T_Rex]

He knows more about FF then I ever will ....

Hell, I wish I could forget some of the stuff I know about FF....

I don't use FF and never have loaded it up.

:p Braggard.

There is a certain amount of rivalry that goes on. Not bad between OF and FF. They just have pride in their own creations. That's all.

Oh, and OF sux0r.

All their base are belong to us.



(That's a joke, too, for any OFers around.)

[Sherlock]

I don't use FF and never have loaded it up.

:p Braggard.

LMAO...hope you didn't take that the wrong way Rexman...it was just a matter of fact statement to say "I don't know the answer to your question SM"

[T_Rex]

LMAO...hope you didn't take that the wrong way Rexman....

hehehe

No worries. I've certainly heard far worse.

Hope you at least give FF4 a chance when its out, though. :thumbs:

[Snake Man]

Wow - you have been out of touch.

Yeah, after I retired it was most likely a year or several months at least when I took a look at my Falcon 4 site. I was just so absolutely fed up / disappointed about the F4 scene. I just enjoyed editing OFP so much that had no urge to take a peek in F4 forum and I never went any "sim" web sites so I never see anykind of news from F4 scene.

FF3 included a new exe, based on the BMS 1.03/2.0 exe, called Cobra.

Okay so I remember seeing this BMS exe talk just before I split. So BMS and FF are basically the same, or was BMS some group of people who quit and handed over the new FF guys the sources from BMS?

It requires the original F4 CD because some of the files are necessary, and it is a good way to make sure someone has a current install of F4.
Oh no - it just requires that you install from the CD, then install FF3 over it. You don't have to physically have the CD in when you play.

Ehh am I stupid or are you feeding me a bit mixing information? It requires... but doesn't require...

If some program requires a CD of XYZ, then it requires it, simple as that. Does FreeFalcon require original Falcon 4.0 1998 CD-rom to be in drive or not?

If you mean that it requires old Falcon 4.0 1998 install (or whatever 1.08 of it) then its wrong to say it requires the CD-ROM. I mean how the hell do you make a patch if you do not require the game installed already, do you ship the whole game in every new download/update, heh I don't think so.

So yeah anyways, I assume that FF DON'T require Falcon 4.0 1998 cd-rom to be present while installing, you guys just put it in the way that it requires the F4 installation to be in the hdd (which is natural).

Or?

OF is still a viable option - some people really enjoy it. But, it has problems on some systems

For example what kind of problems?

Is your phnet email addy still good? "The story of FF" could take awhile.
As for LP, they've made it clear that they would appreciate it if no one kept modding old F4.

Are you hinting that there is much you can tell me... only privately?

Perhaps you suspect/scare that mr big brother LP is watching over our small Theater Headquarters with lawyers on the speed dial?

I think we've made improvements. And we have a dedicated area for theater development, although it is rather slow.

So what rank/position you hold in the FF?

If you make an FF login, I'll be sure to give you access.

Oh you mean the forums or is there something more private place?

We also have an "Open Development" section with access to all the tools that we know of that work.

Heh you guys seem to try to imitate PMC TFW, right in the detail of having user called "Lone Wolf"

It is an open question whether there was "permission" at that point. After LP came onto the stage, it was also unclear whether there was any "permission".

Did FF release any exe edits after LP was announced/in the picture?

They have been working on FF4 for some time now. But release is iffy right now because Lead Pursuit exists now and LP has said they will actively protect their IP rights.

Have they made some specific threats or do the FF guys just scare a bit?

You keep talking about SP5, but no one has it as far as I know. Is that the leaked VO exe?

Yes as I'm hardcore oldschool dude the SP5 for me was always the big boy on the block. It was the ViperOps yes. Damned we had some excellent exe edits and data modifications in there. It was sweet times, until someone leaked the exe and development was just bluntly shutdown overnight.

Hope you at least give FF4 a chance when its out

When it should be out, or are you guys just keeping it on hold looking what LP might do? Or is it really coming along for public release?

Thanks for all the answers so far, the picture gets clearer by the post (and sometimes gets muddier, gotta love how some answers just bring up more questions hehe). All info is greatly appreciated.

[T_Rex]

So BMS and FF are basically the same, or was BMS some group of people who quit and handed over the new FF guys the sources from BMS?

Wellllll... remember the part about why you left? It was some of that.

BMS was always separate, but there was a close working relationship.

After the first BMS release, it attracted coders from across the community (including at least 1 who went to LP). Some of those coders were also from FF (and some from UT/OF).

Due to some decisions made within BMS, the ones who were in FF decided to split off, into the Cobra exe.

Ehh am I stupid or are you feeding me a bit mixing information? It requires... but doesn't require...

LOL

It requires a valid F4 install, preferably from CD. If you have an SP3 or other install, we're not sure how well it'll install. Better to start clean.

Does FreeFalcon require original Falcon 4.0 1998 CD-rom to be in drive or not?

No.

(Ok, one bug has been reported where it DOES ask for the CD. At that point, the best option is to reinstall. Basically, though, you don't need the CD to play the game once it is installed.)

OF is still a viable option - some people really enjoy it. But, it has problems on some systems

For example what kind of problems?

Mostly with FPS. Some seem to have driver issues, and I think some report stability problems.

But, the version of OF that is available was never meant to be released.

Are you hinting that there is much you can tell me... only privately?

Uh... not very subtle of a hint, was it?

Perhaps you suspect/scare that mr big brother LP is watching over our small Theater Headquarters with lawyers on the speed dial?

I think that discretion is the better part of valor.

I know that this site, even without your presence for several years, was known to be the Theater "Mecca" for F4, one of the central places for F4 modding knowledge.

So what rank/position you hold in the FF?

Higher than I would prefer, to be honest.

Co-leader, I guess, at this point. Certainly the spokesman and damage control specialist. One of the founding members, too, I suppose.

Oh you mean the forums or is there something more private place?

The forums. There is one particular forum that is for theater development.

BTW - Sherlock - I don't know if I know you by a different name, but if you want access, too, let me know.

Heh you guys seem to try to imitate PMC TFW, right in the detail of having user called "Lone Wolf"

hehehe

To be honest, when you said you were dropping out, we wanted to make sure there was a place for people to go. We weren't sure how long PMC would continue.

So yes, we imitated you. No apologies, really.

Did FF release any exe edits after LP was announced/in the picture?

I don't think so (my memory's faded a bit).

We still have FF3 (and the accompanying exe) available for download, though. Never received an legal letters on it.

Have they made some specific threats or do the FF guys just scare a bit?

Nothing specific.

It was sweet times, until someone leaked the exe and development was just bluntly shutdown overnight.

You've forgotten that that was basically FF, haven't you?

When it should be out, or are you guys just keeping it on hold looking what LP might do? Or is it really coming along for public release?

We are planning a release. But, as you know, alot depends on how testing goes. We're just a bunch of volunteers, and frankly, UT/OF had all the good talent. We're just trying to piece together as much as we can to keep the "old" F4 modding alive.

One area we want to look at is making sure the old theaters work. Lots of great work invested in those theaters.

[Sherlock]

BTW - Sherlock - I don't know if I know you by a different name, but if you want access, too, let me know.

Thanks T_Rex. I appreciate that. I am already registered at FF forums under the name of lod_viper. I am quite active in the terrain and theaters forum

You guys are a friendly bunch over there. I like the company even if I am not a FF user.

P.S. Can you change my username over there to cut down on the confusion factor? I chose that name before I was "christened" by my squadron mates with the nom de plume of "Sherlock".

[T_Rex]

hehehe

I thought you seemed familiar.

Yeah, next chance I get, I'll change you to Sherlock.

If you have trouble logging in at some point, pm me here, eh? I won't change your pword or anything.

Edit: just made the switch... and... uh... edited one of your permissions.

[Sherlock]

hehehe

I thought you seemed familiar.

Yeah, next chance I get, I'll change you to Sherlock.

If you have trouble logging in at some point, pm me here, eh? I won't change your pword or anything.

Edit: just made the switch... and... uh... edited one of your permissions.

Cool!
Heading over there now to check it out!
Thanks!

Edit: hehe...very nice T_Rex...thanks again!

[Snake Man]

Wellllll... remember the part about why you left? It was some of that.

Actually I don't remember much about FF, heh maybe thats a good thing

Uh... not very subtle of a hint, was it?

Feel free to email me if you want to give some more specifics / inside details, I'd appreciate that.

I know that this site, even without your presence for several years, was known to be the Theater "Mecca" for F4, one of the central places for F4 modding knowledge.

Yes, actually I'm very surprised it didn't turn out to be flame war wasteland soon after I departed, or just empty hollow forum. Boy, never did I imagine that this time comes that the good old Falcon 4 forum will be unified with the rest of the PMC stuff.

Co-leader, I guess, at this point. Certainly the spokesman and damage control specialist. One of the founding members, too, I suppose.

Wow didn't know that (or seriously forgotten then). Nice to hear it from the leaders then directly. Much appreciated that you'd feed some info for me/us.

The forums. There is one particular forum that is for theater development.

As you've seen I'm still quite baffled with all the info coming in, so I cant vouch what kind of activity I'll produce, but yes surely if you can create account for me that would be nice.

To be honest, when you said you were dropping out, we wanted to make sure there was a place for people to go. We weren't sure how long PMC would continue.

Heh didn't belive the power of PMC that it stays online even I said so clearly on the retirement note? Heh well here we are, more powerful than in 2003. Hooyah!

We still have FF3 (and the accompanying exe) available for download, though. Never received an legal letters on it.

Well thats good, stupid retarded lawsuit threats are just so lame, I'm glad LP didn't go down that road.

You've forgotten that that was basically FF, haven't you?

Again yeah I have forgotten. Refresh my memory... who did leak SP5? because I had the impression that nobody knew or at least told me before I split.

[Sherlock]

Quick note for Snake Man:
Just noticed that you have 2006 for the release of Allied Force...It actually was released last year, 2005, in June if I am not mistaken about the month.

[Snake Man]

Thanks Sherlock, first post updated now with all the latest info I think I'll understand now. Let me know if there is any false info slipped in.

[Sherlock]

Thanks Sherlock, first post updated now with all the latest info I think I'll understand now. Let me know if there is any false info slipped in.

Allied Force portion still says:

"Falcon 4.0 Allied Force - June 2005, Leadpursuit
Released 2006 (as v1.0.1.50613) with some community help like Codec and the gang,..."

[T_Rex]

Oh, and "Codec and the gang" were responsible, but not as a community project. Not technically. They are a business incorporated in Texas.

To the extent that the community helped, it was by having models and skins... uh.... used without permission for AF.

That's another chapter in the sordid history....

[Snake Man]

Oh, and "Codec and the gang" were responsible, but not as a community project. Not technically. They are a business incorporated in Texas.
To the extent that the community helped, it was by having models and skins... uh.... used without permission for AF.
That's another chapter in the sordid history....

Thanks the first post updated again. I'll take it that you're definitely not a fan of F4AF then, any particular reason for being so besides the changing of data formats and discouraging community editing (not that it wouldn't be enough alone)?

[T_Rex]

Thanks the first post updated again. I'll take it that you're definitely not a fan of F4AF then, any particular reason for being so besides the changing of data formats and discouraging community editing (not that it wouldn't be enough alone)?

hehehe

Actually, I have great respect for AF. A list of their good qualities would be very long:
- they dedicated themselves to making their hobby a successful product, and I think they did
- they achieved unparalleled stability with F4, no small task
- their support after release has set a new standard for both commercial and community dev work, really top notch
- their internal discipline and adherence to "chain of command" is something I envy
- I think every member of LP is basically a good person

I have problems with some of their decisions.
- the intentional attempts to prevent modding of "old" F4. Make AF unmoddable (or nearly so) - fine. That's their product. But "old" F4 isn't and wasn't. I think that decision was short-sighted and tinged with baser sentiments unworthy of them.
- the use of non-LP work in AF. I think parts of it were inadvertant, but I believe that some of it was intentional. Again, that was a short-sighted decision that was unworthy of them. They didn't really need to do it.

I think it is important to separate the people from the decisions. Like I said, I have no problem with any of the people in LP. I'd sit down and buy them a beer/soda/scotch/frilly umbrella drink in a heartbeat. But some of their decisions strike me as counter-productive.

But, I haven't walked a mile in their shoes. Needless to say, they haven't exactly reached out to discuss the issues with me.

[Sherlock]

Thanks the first post updated again. I'll take it that you're definitely not a fan of F4AF then, any particular reason for being so besides the changing of data formats and discouraging community editing (not that it wouldn't be enough alone)?

hehehe

Actually, I have great respect for AF. A list of their good qualities would be very long:
- they dedicated themselves to making their hobby a successful product, and I think they did
- they achieved unparalleled stability with F4, no small task
- their support after release has set a new standard for both commercial and community dev work, really top notch
- their internal discipline and adherence to "chain of command" is something I envy
- I think every member of LP is basically a good person

I have problems with some of their decisions.
- the intentional attempts to prevent modding of "old" F4. Make AF unmoddable (or nearly so) - fine. That's their product. But "old" F4 isn't and wasn't. I think that decision was short-sighted and tinged with baser sentiments unworthy of them.
- the use of non-LP work in AF. I think parts of it were inadvertant, but I believe that some of it was intentional. Again, that was a short-sighted decision that was unworthy of them. They didn't really need to do it.

I think it is important to separate the people from the decisions. Like I said, I have no problem with any of the people in LP. I'd sit down and buy them a beer/soda/scotch/frilly umbrella drink in a heartbeat. But some of their decisions strike me as counter-productive.

But, I haven't walked a mile in their shoes. Needless to say, they haven't exactly reached out to discuss the issues with me.

T_Rex,
I believe LPs changes to the file formats were not for purposes of stopping modding as much as they were for purposes of improving the product or adding features/better qualities to the product. Why do I say this? Because of my investigations over the last few months as I have begun to "pull apart" the program that is Allied Force. Simple things like:

1. leaving the .irc files in the resource directories to allow unpacking and repacking of .rsc files.
2. Leaving the majority of files from old F4 days exactly the same or with very little change.
3. Keeping the same graphics formats for terrain textures and skin textures.
4. Keeping the objects database very close to the same. The only oddity here is the garbled names of the objects in it...still haven't figured out why this is...

Granted, this may never be known for sure (unless LP people speak out; but like you said their "Chain-of-Command" has been shown to be awesome).

But other than the statement that (I think) C3PO posted about them protecting their IP rights vigorously (in 2005 when the product first came out), I haven't seen them post anything nearly as strong of language since. Instead, its been things like C3PO saying "no, we won't support the addon theaters" or "Why would you want to modify your stable installation?". Not even in the same league as the 2005 statement I would say. And what about all of the skin modifications (and installer programs!) that are now freely discussed on the forums? I am not aware of any statements from C3PO or other LP members coming out against them....

Anyway, I am convinced this may be the case, but I doubt that I can ever prove it unless someone from LP speaks up...

[Snake Man]

- their support after release has set a new standard for both commercial and community dev work, really top notch

Hehe such as??

They made two patches right? Or did I miss something?

Hell, Armed Assault has been out for what... one month and it already has two patches and third on the works. So I cant really vouch for the new standard here, hehe!

- their internal discipline and adherence to "chain of command" is something I envy

Not sure I follow, you mean they are tight lipped as they disappeared from forums (besides Washout if I'm correct) or what do you mean?

- the intentional attempts to prevent modding of "old" F4. Make AF unmoddable (or nearly so) - fine.

I understand they changed the file formats, but how did they effect the Falcon 4.0 1998 version editing?

Or you mean by threatening anyone doing EXE edits?

- the use of non-LP work in AF. I think parts of it were inadvertant, but I believe that some of it was intentional.

What kind of work was used?

Well yeah I guess like Balkans was used, I did terrain tiling for it and some miscellaneus small help here and there... but I don't recall anyone sending me "royalties" (or what is the term?) for my work tiling the terrain all night long back in the day. But you can't really mean such small stuff... did someones work alone be used more directly or?

Like I said, I have no problem with any of the people in LP. I'd sit down and buy them a beer/soda/scotch/frilly umbrella drink in a heartbeat. But some of their decisions strike me as counter-productive.

I learnt this from the OFP scene; when the money gets involved, everything changes...

[Sherlock]

SM,
here are the patches that LP has released since the game came out in June 2005:

1.02
1.03
1.04
1.05
1.06
1.07
1.08
1.09

I don't think there was ever a 1.01.

1.09 just came out last month (Novemeber 2006).

Sherlock

[T_Rex]

They made two patches right? Or did I miss something?

hehehe

Threep, and Ed_1 are regularly on the boards helping people. They hold their cards close to their chest in terms of release dates (3-4 weeks) and content, but they do respond to people.

Not sure I follow, you mean they are tight lipped as they disappeared from forums (besides Washout if I'm correct) or what do you mean?

Yeah. They don't have one member saying one thing, and another saying something else. Everyone pretty much stays "on message."

I understand they changed the file formats, but how did they effect the Falcon 4.0 1998 version editing?

I'd have to do some digging, but they clearly said that there was no "permission" to do any editing on old Falcon. More or less a legal threat.

Or you mean by threatening anyone doing EXE edits?

Both.

What kind of work was used?

3d models and skins mostly. Plus some data and some exe stuff. The latter things are harder to trace, but the 3d work of Sphynx, Pumpyhead and a Hannes "Noname" Wagner were definately included. (I think my own O-1 skin was, too, but it was kinda crappy anyway.)

But you can't really mean such small stuff... did someones work alone be used more directly or?

IIRC, Pumpy and Noname's were included in FF, which had a EULA. Pumpy's also had a separate EULA that it was not to be used in commercial products.

I learnt this from the OFP scene; when the money gets involved, everything changes...

Well, I prefer to think that guys like Codec and Sylvain and the others are just making decisions that they believe are right, regardless of the money.

But, I think alot of people are on your side of the belief....

[Snake Man]

here are the patches that LP has released since the game came out in June 2005: 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09

Ouch, I stand corrected!

I'd have to do some digging, but they clearly said that there was no "permission" to do any editing on old Falcon. More or less a legal threat.

Could you please do some digging, I would be very happy to see any direct links/quotes from LP guys on this.

Not that it ever in a million years would keep me from editing, but if what you wrote is correct "to the word" then its fucking ridiculous on LP's end. I mean if I cannot take lets say... F16 skin, blaster "PMC ROCKZ!" on side of it and release it as "PMC rocks F16 skin" without being harassed by LP, then... heh seriously its stupid. But I'm seriously hoping that you didn't mean that literally or that I just misunderstood what you said.

Pumpy and Noname's were included in FF, which had a EULA. Pumpy's also had a separate EULA

Oh, well thats nasty. I mean what we freelancers do freely is one thing, but if a company snatches some of our work (escpecially with eula) and SELLS it to public, then that is lame.

Well, I prefer to think that guys like Codec and Sylvain and the others are just making decisions that they believe are right, regardless of the money.

I disagree. For example don't you think Codec would have released the new file format supporting TacEdit v2.x by now if he wouldn't get paid through LP thingy? (meaning the file formats would have been changed in the first place, uh... but you'll get my point hehe)

[T_Rex]

I'd have to do some digging, but they clearly said that there was no "permission" to do any editing on old Falcon. More or less a legal threat.

Could you please do some digging, I would be very happy to see any direct links/quotes from LP guys on this.

From http://www.lead-pursuit.com/news_old01.htm

News: July 6 2005
Lead Pursuit would like to remind all current owners of Falcon 4.0 and Falcon 4.0: Allied Force that they are bound by the EULA they accepted when they loaded the product onto their PC. There are no exceptions to this. Atari and Lead Pursuit will vigorously defend their intellectual property. This includes modification or redistribution of any portion of Falcon 4.0 and Falcon 4.0: Allied Force.

----------------------

News: July 7 2005

Our sympathies go out to all those who suffered through the events in London today.

Lead Pursuit has great appreciation for what benefits and life the modding community can bring to a sim like Falcon. Our goal is to balance the enthusiasm of the community that wants to do their best to help bring Falcon to a new level along with those who want a trouble free and stable product. The details of this framework are in the final stages of completion and will be published shortly. Until that point in time, we would ask that our fans respect the EULA and more importantly have fun flying Allied Force.

------------------------------------------

News: August 21st, 2005
Today we're pleased to announce our Third Party Add-On Agreement. The ability for community developers to include their work in Falcon 4.0: Allied Force is something which has been near the top of the requests list. Certain modifications, within a defined and fixed framework, gives a legal outlet for some of the extraordinary work out there. We have produced a formal, legally binding document which sets out the details and conditions which apply.... [snipped]

If approved, they'll be distributed via the autoupdater. We hope everyone understands that a centralized and organized system of modifications is the only way forward. We cannot stress enough that Lead Pursuit remains totally committed to maintaining the highest levels of stability in both single player and multiplayer, and of course maintaining levels of realism too.

Interview with Kurt "Froglips" Giesselman, CEO of LP.
http://www.185th.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=841

(I cut down the actual quote I wanted to quote. Go to the site for more info.)

Vosene: Roger that. Your “Cease and Desist” notice, the first one that appeared on your website a few days ago now, basically about the Allied Force and Falcon modding definitely caused a few concerns and gained a strong reaction from the community but as an online squadron our specific concern is that as we fly with SP4 and MP5.1, what does that mean for us? Taken literally and in its widest sense you could interpret your notice such that anything between Microprose patch 1.08 and your release of Allied Force is now considered an illegal mod and people should not be using it. Was that really your intention or was the intent to stop people from modifying Allied Force. Could you clarify this please?

Froglips: Let me try. First of all it is important to say that the Intellectual Property is and remains Atari’s and the descriptions of various as “illegal” and stuff like that is probably true in the strict legal sense of the word. What we are concerned about is hacking the software and Internet distribution going forward. I don’t think we are caught up in looking into the past, pointing fingers or accusing people of “evil things” that were done over the last 7 years. At this point the community does have a new commercial product that is available. There are two areas of focus for us. Our concern is people might continue to develop non standard alternative products based upon previously released modifications (you mentioned SP4 and FF which are as good an example as any). Although they may be well meaning in trying to continue to push the envelope, they are no longer permitted or acceptable to the IP holder or Lead Pursuit. Our real focus going forward is, and clearly we would not support people peeking, poking, or modifying a commercially released product, is to create a system that maintains our highly valued stability. We would not support people continuing to develop new exe releases and modifications based upon some of the things that have been previously released. Another primary focus is illegal distribution. People who do things in the privacy of their own home are not our concern. People who, certainly from their words at least, are threatening to continue to distribute modifications that will reduce the stability and could potentially interfere with the new player’s experience as they are trying to get it up and running only to see a bunch of patches floating around that they are not sure what to do with or create a bad experience with our product because of something that has been added to it which is not compatible with the commercial product. The notice that you refer to as a “C&D notice” I would not quite refer to it quite in those terms, if we wanted to serve a formal “Cease and Desist” notice to certain individuals they would have had it in their hands by now. What we want to do, and what I will say is that hopefully what we did is simply remind people that this is a commercial product. We really do value the community and we are trying to work with the IP holder. Modifications to Allied Force have implications not just for Lead Pursuit but also for the IP holder, Atari. They are not at all happy with the idea of having a commercially released product “hacked”. What we are working on with them is a mechanism where we can keep the community engaged and involved.

Also interesting interview with Joel Bierling, Exec. Producer of AF:
http://www.simhq.com/_air4/air_135a.html

Q. Will data edits be permitted under the new EULA?

A. An announcement will be made soon.

Q. Is 100% of the development the result of members of the F4:AF team or are additional skins, terrains, and cockpits being imported from the modding community?

A. They're the work of Lead Pursuit.

[snipped]
Q. Will you support the mods community? If yes, to what extent?

A. We're making an announcement on this soon.

(Quote from page 4 and 5.)

[87th_striker]

Just leave it behind...... It's destructive.... Like pigwrestling.

[T_Rex]

I know.

I'm just answering his questions.

I guess I should point out that there have been community mods released - both for old F4 and AF - without any repercussions.

So, the threats do appear to have been empty.