New 3D Toys? X

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New 3D Toys? X

Post by Washout » 2001-08-05 22:18:00

Hi All

Just a quick one to show the latest progress I have made with trees in the Balkans.

Image

I still have much to do in order to make the implementation as painless as possible and to get the best effect I can but the basics are there.

Later


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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Snake Man » 2001-08-06 01:08:00

Did I understand correctly that the trees are included in those city objects?

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-06 01:48:00

WashOut... AWESOME!!! The trees look great!!! Have you guys played with 'forests' of them yet, and the performance hit associated with that?? Cos well, this is something i am quite intrigued with, primarily for implementation in my little theater...

Ideally, Id like them everywhere, but realistically i would like to pack them round airbases (to make finding individual objects to hit, much harder) and cities (so the bad guys can hide a bit more)...

But still, Top Stuff... :)
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Widowmaker » 2001-08-06 06:43:00

YES trees

Great work Chris


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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Luke71 » 2001-08-06 09:18:00

Wow! Great work.

How is performance affected by trees? Is it possible to have hundreds (thousands) of them?

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Washout » 2001-08-06 09:37:00

Hi Guys

Glad you like them.

At the moment there are 3 single tree LODs which I have added as features to that junction objective just to test.

FYI - Each tree is just 2 polygons in a cross shape (thanks again CCC for the idea) and a texture applied to each face. I could probably do some more work with shading etc but to be quite honest apart from some external shots, where the view is looking straight down, they appear pretty good from all angles and give a good sense of speed as you flash by them in full reheat.

What I am proposing is that I make a LOD with say 20 trees on it which will then reduce the feature entries on each objective (but it will mean that you will destroy 20 trees if you drop a bomb on it).

I'll keep the single trees in as well so we can break up pattern repeats which might occur (although you can spin the features round so this won't happen much).

I'll also make a row of trees for use as either avenues along roads or perimeter growth around airfields.

Regarding FPS issues I have yet to see any FPS drop but then consider this - If the F16 model uses 1600 polys and the trees use 2 then that's 800 trees for every F16 you can have. Also most graphics cards above a TNT2 are way over horsepowered for Falcon 4 anyway and it's moving ground units that kill FPS (this was proved in the latest Balkans release where we have more bridges than Korea had objects and still kept the FPS up).

Bob Crawford is also working on a wood/forest object which will (provided all goes well) mean a single object instead of thousands of trees for woods and forests.

We still have a lot of testing to do but I intend to add as many trees as possible and see where the limits are in terms of FPS - these experiments may also yield other data such as how far we can go populating urban areas etc.

BTW - The more trees you put in the better they look and this should make A10 missions a lot better looking.

As some of yuo are probably aware Jerry Davis is working on a global terrain patch to which we can add our theatres. I intend to have the trees (and the altered objects that display them) available under that patch. This way every body can use them.

I'll keep you guys updated.

Later

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by ccc » 2001-08-06 10:21:00

WOW! Chris, you try to beat all other jet sims to death?! well done! :D :D

hey, dont forget my forrest block concept, show us some forrest!!

btw, i think you can have a look at Mircorose Tank Platoon 2 and Gunship!(there's demo), could bring some inspiration!

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by brewskie » 2001-08-06 11:04:00

outstanding.

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by RP » 2001-08-06 13:13:00

X-c-lent progress Sir! Keep it up. Just one thought, in terms of scaling and in comparison to the height of surrounding buildings, consider making the trees a bit smaller perhaps. Otherwise, who can ask for anything more :D! On the other hand, how's that forest block coming??! :p
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Aeyes » 2001-08-06 13:26:00

This is great! finally some woods 'n trees, keep up the good work ;)

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-06 14:16:00

Blocks of tree's grouped into hexagons would be good... easy to link, looks far more 'rounded' than squares (AKA more natural) and destrying a block would look more like a circular area of damage... But would it still be possible to place other objects 'within' the block of trees, such as tanks, ZSU's or SAM's???
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Luke71 » 2001-08-06 14:35:00

Zaggy,
Great idea. A hexagon would indeed be better for 2 reasons! Not only groups of such hexagons would look much better, damage due to explosions (bombs, AC) would then look rounder (in a large forest) and would rather represent damage due to a shock wave.

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by 87th_striker » 2001-08-06 14:53:00

Naaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiicccccceeeeeeee !!

I would like to see some pines, with a long trunk, with some green in the top. Typical for northern hemisphere, Russia, Scaninavia, North America..

Plz

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-06 15:48:00

Thats the expression i was looking for Luke... Circular Shockwave Effects... As opposed to my rather clumbsy wording, 'circular area of damage'... :)
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Washout » 2001-08-06 20:30:00

Hi Guys

Thanks for the feedback.

Bob Crawford is working hard on the block forest models so I'm sure we'll have something soon.

Regarding a few points:

RP - The buildings actually need sorting out as those small dark conifers are 65ft tall yet they are larger than the 8 story building to the left which can only be 40ft tall (that's 5ft a floor). Either that or the textures all need looking at. Either way that is a major project which needs to be undertaken.

The hexagon thing is a good idea and will look even more natural with 5 different height trees in. I am hoping to do 5 conifers and 5 deciduous.

For other theatres where the deciduous trees maybe aren't needed the creators can change the skins of the trees as they only have one skin each.

Regarding tanks etc - they should be able to navigate the single trees although progress maybe slow (we still have to test this). Bob's forest model and the clumps maybe a bit more of a problem but we'll have to see. In the end we may have to either make the ground units go around or pass right through (more testing).

I have bombed them and they do burn/smoke and blow up leaving a sort of stump model which I may work on. One thing I haven't tried is getting secondary damage to work (which won't be necessary on the "clump" model) as it might be might be interesting if you bomb with napalm for example.

Anyway it's early days so we'll see how far we can go with this but the next issue I have is getting the existing objectives populated and then getting those objetives into some sort of f4patch.

More news as I work things out.

Later


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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-08 16:46:00

Having Tanks/Personnell/SAM's pass straight thru the trees would of course be much preferable than making them go round the entire block.. At least they can still hide in the trees, and sting you when you least expect it.. Multiplayer stuff with an A-10 FAC, A-10 with bombs and F-16's doing topcover and some bombing would be great...

One question? Do we in F4, have a 'Smoke Marker' for FAC a/c??? If we got 'charlie in the trees', having smoke to aim at, would make life a lot easier... "FAC Delta 1, Viper 22... ZSU 50 meters north of Smoke... Lay it on him!!"... Oh what fun MP missions could be!!!

Another question... Do the tree's obscure the view of groub based units, or impare them in any way??? A ZSU burried in thick woods, would find it hard to fight as effectively as a ZSU sitting in the open...
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-08 17:03:00

OK, I just thought of a problem with the blocks of trees idea...

What happens on the sides of mountians??? If we want the trees vertical, well have this big object sticking out of the sides of mountains... If we place the group of trees flat on the surface, the tree's with be on weird angles....

Just a thought...
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Washout » 2001-08-09 10:17:00

Hi Zaggy

I haven't started testing ground units with the trees yet as I need to finish creating the "avenue" and "clump" models (probably 2-3 days time). After that I want to find out how many I can add before FPS gets affected.

I agree with you that the ground units should at least be able to go through the "block" model and hide there - this would happen in real life (with cammo netting as well if they are stationary). Regarding the clump/line and single trees I expect that the AI will be able to navigate these provided they are placed carefully but we won't know for sure until the models are all ready and we start testing.

Regarding the block on steep slopes I have this concern also but there maybe things we can do about this as there are special polygon types which can always face one way which we maybe able to use to mitigate the effect.

Re: FAC markers - I believe the discussion on how to do this has been raised on the F4Alliance board (as Ripper is starting work on a major A10 model overhaul). I agree it would be an excellent MP addition and would go someway toward getting the electronic battlefield dream a step closer.

Anyway back to forestry.


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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Cooler69 » 2001-08-09 12:58:00

Chris:

For info, we also had a brief discussion about FAC markers on egroups around about the time I posted this message:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/f4terrain/message/3801
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-09 13:52:00

Chris, if you could get those trees to stand upright at all times, that would be magic!!! And as for the FPS hit, lets face it, by the end of the year, most ppl will be running 1Ghz + machines (except me and my 233 and 300 probably), so the FPS hit would be much of an issue... Just throw Horsepower at it!!!
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by T_Rex » 2001-08-09 19:13:00

I was thinking about the "side of the mountain" problem while driving to work today. (No, I don't live in a mountainous area, but yes, I think of F4 ALOT.) :) I don't think it'll be that big of a deal.

My thinking is that the mountains will probably have the "forest block" object rather that a bazillion individual trees. The forest block will be parallel to the mountain. With the forest block, MOST of what we'll be able to see should be the tops of the trees (the canopy) without much of the trunk showing through. So, from the air, I don't think it'll be that big of a problem. My understanding is that the polys will be in layers, with different textures that include some trunk textures, with some transperancy portions to make it look random and like there's a bunch of trees.

I guess the best bet is to see what it looks like. :)

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-10 07:12:00

what about at the edges of forests (angled trees at the edges), and over the tops of mountains (a sort of parted hair look along some of the join lines)...???

still, its better than no trees!!! :)

Vietnam would REALLY benifit from trees..

ANOTHER benifit, it would also make tiling easier!!! No more messing with forest tiles!!!
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-10 07:21:00

An unrelated question: Is it possible to make water reflective??? Creeks, rivers and oceans reflecting some of the sun's light???
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by hc_pookie » 2001-08-10 13:06:00

A few points to bring out:

1.
Any object in F4 has a 'collidable' switch. I haven't tested in-depth, but this, along with the hitbox measurements, determine whether or not you can crash into them, and if you must go around vs. through them.

Needs testing.

2.
Tree 'clump' objectives and forest objectives will be added. While possible, it is impractical to add individual features to existing objectives. It creates a huge patching problem.

We will probably see trees added in close proximity to the existing cities, airbases, etc. so that we get the same effect.

3.
Smoking features and FAC markers:
That's still on the plate as far as I know. Kurt and I exchanged quite a bit on this in the past and I think we agreed that it might be doable, but needs a great deal of testing. I hope to play with this more so that we will have something by the holidays.... keep your fingers crossed!

4.
Mountains - there may be a few things to do with 'clumps' but I'm not sure about the forest canopy, because of the way that F4 places objectives. Ever noticed a few buildings hovering in the air on some mountainous areas? That's because F4 places the OBJECTIVE at the coordinates. F4 then places the individual features, using the altitude of the objective. This creates that 'hovering' effect of the buildings. So if you placed an airfield in the side of a mountain, half of it would float in mid-air. Ditto for the forsest, so the smaller tree clumps may be the only practical way to bring trees to the mountains. Just a little more work will be needed!

5.
The F4Terrain data patch will include the trees for all terrains to use. It will be up to the Terrain developers to place them in their respective theaters. I don't know how this will work with the Korean theater. Probably means the edited campaigns (like Scoob's campaigns) can have trees while the default campaigns won't. We shall see.

6.
2 Ghz processors will be out soon, so who cares about FPS? :^)

- Jerry

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-10 13:46:00

I love that spirit!!! Throw it some more Horsepower!!!!
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by T_Rex » 2001-08-10 14:29:00

Re: FAC/smoke markers

I was thinking about this driving home last night (starting to see a pattern here...). Maybe a rough solution would be an obscene amount of rockets (like 100+) would be available for a given plane. That way, the FAC could put down a bunch of rockets that would explode and smoke for a few seconds, then he could refresh it. Maybe even make the rockets do little or no damage.

Just brainstorming!

T
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by hc_pookie » 2001-08-10 19:35:00

Kurt's idea for the smoke object is as follows:

(found all this when working on the Volcano smoke)

1. Add a slot to a 'damage crater' feature so that it may smoke like the Factories do. Add the 'has smoke' flag.

2. Set a Rocket weapon (possible new weapon) to produce this new crater vs. the normal crater. The 'willy pete' calls can be assigned to this weapon.

3. Set the repair time to a very low number so that it won't last very long

4. Set priority to 'high' (I think Zero) so that it gets attacked by others. Not sure about this, because the priority may only apply to fragged targets. But when you are on barcap, AI wingies will always attack bombers when they fly into the bubble, even if Mig-29s are on your tail!

5. Set hit box on crater to a large size, so that the AI will attack an area vs. a point on the map.

6. Set the 'damage from' values to zero so bombing the area doesn't also damage the crater. Damage values may be the other way too - where the damage of the bombs eventually destroy the crater, allowing it to stay only for a brief period.

7. Rely on the 'attack my target' commands (not sure here) to vector CAS flights to the target. The interaction may not work for AI, only for humans. Would need testing.

I don't know how all of this will work and I think trial-and-error is the only way to be certain. All of this may be for nothing if it requires code changes. So much depends on the assumptions that AI will respond to it and that it will behave as expected.

- Jerry

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by 87th_striker » 2001-08-11 06:35:00

Can you change colour on individual smoke ?
Does different smoke types exist?

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-13 02:44:00

OK... The trees are great... When do we get to actually use them in our terrains??? Because, well, I want trees!!! Why??? Cos Trondheim is full of them....

OBTW, Im slowly discovering just how much fun it is, hand drawing a total city accurately, including sporting venues, railways, main roads, rivers, etc... If nothing else, I will at least have an accurate F4 taxi-cab simulator, able to find exact streets... Could be evry useful when someone does a Harrier cockpit and stuff, You can drive the company vechile home :(
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Snake Man » 2001-08-13 05:05:00

quote:Originally posted by Zaggy:
OBTW, Im slowly discovering just how much fun it is, hand drawing a total city accurately, including sporting venues, railways, main roads, rivers, etc...
Hey Zaggy are you making tiles now?

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Washout » 2001-08-13 10:18:00

Hi Zaggy

I am in the middle of finishing the "clump" model (the line/avenue one is done). After that I have to talk nicely to Jerry to help me get them into the "Terrain Master Patch" he is working on. The objects will then be available to all theatre makers but won't be placed (I still have to discuss what the best way of doing the placement is as it could lead to changes to nearly every objective in the existing Falcon 4 database plus the creation of a few new ones).

Later


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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-13 13:47:00

Washout... Cool.. Im sure we will all hear about it when your tree's are done... The clumps, are they hexagons, and what dimensions??? And did you solve the 'trees not standing upright on slopes' thing??

Snake... Yeah... Currently doing base tiles for Trondheim... Scored a road map of most of the city, then reduced it to 128pixels per km... Now Im painting it, from some aerial pics i have of the place... Got the soccer stadium done!!! hahahahahaaa :)
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by hc_pookie » 2001-08-13 14:24:00

Let's try again with correct formatting...

>After that I have to talk nicely to Jerry to help me get them into the "Terrain
>Master Patch" he is working on.
How soon we talking? I'd like to get the master patch stuff ready for next weekend, perhaps for release next Monday - assuming we hit no roadblocks!
>The objects will then be available to all theatre makers but won't be placed
>(I still have to discuss what the best way of doing the placement is as it could
>lead to changes to nearly every objective in the existing Falcon 4 database
>plus the creation of a few new ones).

IMHO - we should not add to the existing objectives, as the database changes would be problematic. I really think the best way is to add the clumps, and place them selectively around the objectives.

IF we choose to edit the existing objectives, we will really need to examine the best way to do it. I don't know an easy way to make the changes. Perhaps the easiest way is to make a carbon copy of the objectives, then add the features to the 'new' objectives. Sound difficult? It will be. That's the easiest way IMO.

Here's the reason:
The .FED pointers enumerate each instance of the features for the objective. The FED file is a list of pointers. So for example:

Objective1 => FED #1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Objective2 => FED #8,9,10,11,12
Objective3 => FED #13,14,15,16

Let's say we wish to add 3 trees to Objective2:
Objective1 => FED #1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Objective2 => FED #8,9,10,11,12,X,Y,Z
Objective3 => FED #13,14,15,16

Here is what happens to the feature numbering:
Objective1 => FED #1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Objective2 => FED #8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15
Objective3 => FED #13,14,15,16

The new pointers are NOT INSERTED - Now Objective3 is using the features from Objective2!!!! Not good.

Unless a programmer can make a FED insert function, that adjusts the numbering of **every** objective's FED pointers, we can't insert FED pointers. THerefore, we can only append new pointers, and use those. That's what the Balkans features do. That's what the Tree features will need to do.

The ONLY alternative is to pick with existing features we wish to REPLACE, then substitute those with our new. For example, to add a tree to an airbase, you may select one of the refuelling/rearm 'trucks' that are parked along the tarmac. These are FED #3072-3079. Take those, and edit their CT number to point to the new CT for the Trees. Now, just edit the X,Y coordinates and viola! you have effectively replaced the refuel trucks with trees.

So you see, we have a few bugs to iron out....

- Jerry

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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Snake Man » 2001-08-13 15:14:00

quote:Originally posted by hc_pookie:
How soon we talking? I'd like to get the master patch stuff ready for next weekend, perhaps for release next Monday - assuming we hit no roadblocks!
That sounds very good. Can you give us any hints what it will contain?

Can you add some Vietnam and Desert Storm treat for us? :)
quote:IMHO - we should not add to the existing objectives, as the database changes would be problematic. I really think the best way is to add the clumps, and place them selectively around the objectives.
Yes please do not add trees to EXISTING objects like airbases. I would hate to see green pinetrees on King Khalid Military City as I'm taking off to strike Iraqi targets in the desert...

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Dragon
Recruit
Posts: 54
Joined: 2001-03-19 23:01:01
Location: Kentucky, USA

Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Dragon » 2001-08-13 15:55:00

You are correct. The FED is a list of pointers and is in sequence. So to insert a new feature to an Objective, you have to renumber all the FEDs and move data around.

It is not a hard task to do as my Browser does it during insert/delete features commands. (I thought Julian's Browser did it also).

Anyway, you can do it and then replace out the new FED and OCD files with the Balkans installer.

I think this would be your best option as you can put the trees near the end of each objective and those with slower processors wont see them as they will be running on a lower Object Density. The trees would only be for those who have the OD cranked up.

hc_pookie
2nd Lt
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by hc_pookie » 2001-08-13 16:51:00

>It is not a hard task to do as my Browser
>does it during insert/delete features
>commands. (I thought Julian's Browser did
>it also).

I will attempt to find out. Now that I think about it, it does insert pointers.... but the F4Patch file that you make will reindex all the FED pointers - this of course means that you can't renumber them but only 1 time.

>Anyway, you can do it and then replace out
>the new FED and OCD files with the Balkans
>installer

I think that will be the best thing to do. I'll re-examine that patch tonight.

-----

...As far as Forest trees around Desert airbases, that's a good point! Perhaps we could re-arrange the Features to point to a 'tumbleweed' or 'cactus' (or whatever) vs. a European forest tree. Just a thought. Will require a little more planning....

Hunter
1st Lt
Posts: 149
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Hunter » 2001-08-13 20:40:00

I hope the trees you're adding will be like this or even better. :D

Image
Captain Hunter 87th Stray Dogs http://www.87th.org

Washout
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Posts: 134
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Location: Wallingford,Oxon,UK

Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Washout » 2001-08-13 22:46:00

Hi Guys

Hunter - The trees still look like the screenshot at the top of the thread but AFAIK they use the same technique as LOMAC. Whether we can get that many into Falcon 4 remains to be seen but I think in some ways Bob Crawford's forest block may be better as close packed forests don't have big gaps in the way that LOMAC shot has - as said before it's early days.

Jerry - Even though it's early days I can have the LOD's ready for Friday if that's not too late.

What I invisaged was the tree LODs included in the Terrain Master Patch and then the individual theatre child patches to apply them to the objectives in each theatre. I'm not sure how practical that approach would be given what you have said about the FED pointers.

Also the textures I thought would be better theatre specific that way people can add species more in keeping with the region they are modelling.

Zaggy - Yes the clump will be roughly hexagonal but also a bit irregular to avoid repetative patterns.

I will post some more screenshots from work tomorrow showing the "avenue" experiments but please excuse the quality as the GCard I'm using there sucks compared to the V5500 I use at home.

Later


Chris "Washout" Carter
CO: The Vulture Squadron
Balkans Terrain Team
Chris "Washout" Carter
F4 Balkans Terrain Team
CO: The Vulture Squadron

Zaggy
Colonel
Posts: 380
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Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by Zaggy » 2001-08-14 06:41:00

Well if the clumps are roughly a regular hexagon, we can avoid some manner of repetition by rotating the clumps in multiples of 60 degrees, giving each clump 6 positions, and avoiding more potential repetition effects...

We could also have clumps with a clearing in them, inside which you could place ojects, such as a missile launcher, building, drop zone or something like that too... Just another idea...

But anyway, Washout, youre a dead-set legend... Which if you know any australian-isms, you'll know that is a good thing to be...
Daniel "Zaggy" Bell
Old-School, Grumpy and Anti-Social
Also to be found lurking round FighterOps

hc_pookie
2nd Lt
Posts: 86
Joined: 2001-04-16 22:01:01
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: New 3D Toys? X

Post by hc_pookie » 2001-08-14 11:50:00

Don't worry about getting them in on Friday since Bob's tree canopy isn't done yet. We'll get them in soon enough! :^)

- Jerry

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