Snakeman, check the F4ME logo out :)

[T Bone]

[Snake Man]

Yeah real nice.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Tazz]

T-Bone,

Exactly what countries are included in the theater?

[ccc]

let me type for Tbone:

West Iran, Irag, Kwuait, north Saudi.

[Tazz]

okay, I'll get the ORBATs and articles of those air foces. Saves me scanning all those other pages on the other arab countries like Syria, UAE, Bahrain etc.

[ccc]

Tazz, any latest info about Syrian Su27?
I heard they bought some. dunno if you got any solid pic, quantity info, and their armament?
There are more and more Flanker customers worldwide..IAF indeed face serious challenge, especially Flankers with R77+R73.
BTW, any detail info about Su27 vs Mig29 in the conflict between Ethopia and Eriteria? Cant find any detailed info, even from SOF magazine, like which type of missile down what kind of a/c? engage range?

[Tazz]

I'll look into it.. bit tired do now.

[Tazz]

No pic yet. They currently operate 45 MiG-29A's but they do want to buy some SU-27s as well.

Quote from AFM Feb 2000, page 52:

"Contacts with Russia have been renewed and an upgrade package for the Su-22s and MiG-21s was negoiated in 1996. More recently, Russia's ambassador to Syria confirmed that talks are underway regarding a re-equipment package worth up to $ 2.5 billion that would include Su-27s, MiG-29SMTs, S-300 SAM systems and other military equipment. MiG-31 Foxhounds have also been associated with the deal. [..] and the USA is fiercly opposed to what it sees as a re-armament of Syria at a crucial time in the peace process."

It's 4:30 AM here so I might have some typo's there.


T-Bone, I got several articles for you you might like.. how would you like to receive them? By email?
I also have a pic of an *Iranian* MiG-29 but it's right in the middle of a magazine that also contains a poster so scanning it will be sort of difficult.

[ccc]

Pliz, I'd like to have a look what Iranian fulcrum looks like!

[Death_119]

Well Syria got some new jets so I heard and a Su27 oucccchhhhhh . and the IAF will get during the next 5 years more then 200 new F-16I .
its seems someone is cooking a small war here.
Well lets hope this one will stay at falcon4 and not next to my home.

[brewskie]

T-bone remember it was a Coalition of forces, not just the US,but Britain and France too. It's up to you, but I would add there flags also in the upper right corner,just make them smaller.
Plus the theater will have a wider base of support if you appeal to the international crowd as well, just IMO. It's all about the Global village. My Internet inspiration for the day.

[This message has been edited by brewskie (edited January 01, 2001).]

[T Bone]

quote:Originally posted by Tazz:
No pic yet. They currently operate 45 MiG-29A's but they do want to buy some SU-27s as well.

Quote from AFM Feb 2000, page 52:

"Contacts with Russia have been renewed and an upgrade package for the Su-22s and MiG-21s was negoiated in 1996. More recently, Russia's ambassador to Syria confirmed that talks are underway regarding a re-equipment package worth up to $ 2.5 billion that would include Su-27s, MiG-29SMTs, S-300 SAM systems and other military equipment. MiG-31 Foxhounds have also been associated with the deal. [..] and the USA is fiercly opposed to what it sees as a re-armament of Syria at a crucial time in the peace process."

It's 4:30 AM here so I might have some typo's there.


T-Bone, I got several articles for you you might like.. how would you like to receive them? By email?
I also have a pic of an *Iranian* MiG-29 but it's right in the middle of a magazine that also contains a poster so scanning it will be sort of difficult.

Well my email box is full right now, is it possible for you to upload it somewhere?

[Tazz]

T-Bone,

Well I dunno. I could put it on my webserver but it *IS* copyrighted material from Air Forces Monthly magazine and I don't want to run into trouble for that.

All articles combined are 9MB in JPG files, each 1200x1600.

I believe those articles will provide you some more information on the make-up and current state of the Saudi, Kuwaiti, Iraqi and Iranian Armed Forces. Could come in handy.

I'll look if I can find a pic of that Iranian MiG-29 on the web somewhere, don't feel like wrecking my magazine

[aabhutta]

How about the Syrian's getting some help from their old friends i.e the Pakistani's with a squadron of F-16A's coming in to protect Damascus..

[Tazz]

Well Pakistan only got 1 batch of F-16A's delivered. The other batch didn't come through and was stored at AMARC for years. Now the US Navy and the USAF will devide that batch of F-16A/B's for Aggressor use.

[ccc]

I heard that those vipers are sold to countries like New Zealand?

AFAIK, Pakistanian joined the war, but they used Syrian migs. BTW, A model could hardly beat IAF C model+120, in BVR.
The best chance for Syria is Mig29/Su27+R77, better takeoff in time before IAF raid.

of course, S300 could do good job till IAF figure out new EW tactics. stealth UAV?

[This message has been edited by ccc (edited January 01, 2001).]

[Tazz]

No, New Zealand was interested in replacing its A-4Ks with the F-16As but that plan fell through. Instead the New Zealand AF might no longer exist after the A-4K Skyhawks will be phased out!

So then the USN and USAF could get the F-16As dirt cheap and they 'bought' them. So we will see F-16's in US Navy Aggressor service again very soon. Just don't know what the USAF is going to do with the Alpha models, even the ANG doesn't have them anymore! Maybe extra frames for the 414th CTS (Aggressor squadron) based at Nellis AFB or ground instruction or perhaps chase aircraft for Edwards AFB or operational test aircraft for the test units at Nellis and Eglin.

[ccc]

Or modify/upgrade them to block60?
Say, I also heard that former eastern europe countries want viper, they could be used for FMS?

[Tazz]

Not likely. F-16A's are not very wanted anymore. Even the Portuguese are now buying F-16A MLUs!

The number of aircraft that went to the USAF is about 8 Alphas and 3 Bravo's. Hardly worthwhile upgrading. Perhaps for own use but unlikely that whey would end up with several F-16A MLU's to replace lost Block 50/52s.

I'm not entirely sure but I didn't think that FMS programs are conducted by the USAF itself.

The only good thing I can imagine about those F-16As is that they are brandnew with hardly any hours on them. Infact they were flown from the Lockheed plant to the AMARC. But they are very old Alpha's, I believe they're block 15 but I have to look that up.

Would make for a nice aggressor aircraft though where no block 30/40 avionics are required to simulate a MIG-29/Su-27 in close combat.

[aabhutta]

those particular F-16A's were indeed MLU standard as requested by PAF in late 80's

[Tazz]

They don't have them yet. The F-16A's they received during the 90s to replace the A-7P are not MLU F-16's. Portugal send 6 of them to Red Flag 00-03/P2 where I could have a good look at them (was having a great time hopping over the ramp with my camera's ), and they are all plain old F-16A's.

T-Bone: what shall I do with those articles?

[ccc]

Tazz,

I think aabhutta means Pakistanian AF, not portugal AF

Oh, this thread turns into viper talk?

[Tazz]

I don't think Pakistan is going to get Vipers from the USA any time soon.

[aabhutta]

PAF (Pakistan Airforce) already operates three squadrons of F-16-A's (MLU) able to carry sparrow SARH missiles. We got them at the height of the cold war (during Soviet invasion of Afghanistan). PAF F-16's are the only Vipers i know off that shot down Soviet fighters in air combat .The score was 6-0.

[ccc]

c

quote:Originally posted by aabhutta:
PAF F-16's are the only Vipers i know off that shot down Soviet fighters in air combat .The score was 6-0.

Could you detail that?
I heard Russian su25 ate two rounds of aim9, but survive home. so, what's the a/c down?

[Tazz]

quote:Originally posted by aabhutta:
PAF (Pakistan Airforce) already operates three squadrons of F-16-A's (MLU) able to carry sparrow SARH missiles. We got them at the height of the cold war (during Soviet invasion of Afghanistan). PAF F-16's are the only Vipers i know off that shot down Soviet fighters in air combat .The score was 6-0.

The Pakistan Air Force received regular F-16A Block 15's not Mid-Life-Upgrade (MLU) F-16's. The MLU-Program iniators and designers, the Norwegian AF, Netherlands AF, Belgium AF and Danish AF started to receive their AIM-120 capable F-16A MLU's only 2 years ago. The first steps were set in 1989 but the development of the program lasted until 1997 and in 1998 the first operational MLU F-16A's went into service.

However, the Pakistan AF has updated Block-15S in service which are close to MLU specs. However Block-15S is not a Lockheed/USAF specification so I assume a 'third party' modified these PAF F-16A's, possibily Singapore , Israel (IAI) or perhaps France (Dassault) but I couldn't find any information on that anywhere.


From F-16.net:

In December 1981, the government of Pakistan signed a letter of agreement for the purchase of 40 F-16A/B (28 F-16A and 12 F-16B) fighters for the Pakistan Fiza'ya (Pakistan Air Force, or PAF). The first aircraft were accepted at Fort Worth in October of 1982, and he first F-16, flown by Squadron Leader Shahid Javed, landed in Pakistan at Sargodha Air Base on 15 January 1983 as part of a package of 6 aircraft (2 A's and 4 B's). The Pakistani F-16A/Bs are all Block 15 aircraft, the final version of the F-16A/B production run, and are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan. All 40 aircraft were delivered between 1983 and 1987. By 1997, 8 aircraft of the initial Peace Gate I order have been attrited, hence 32 remain in service and despite the embargo, caused by the Pakistan-specific Pressler Amendment (see below), are being fully supported by commercial contracts.

The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15S F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. Currently, Pakistani F-16s typically carry two all-aspect AIM-9L Sidewinders on the wing tip rails along with a pair of AIM-9P-4s on the outermost underwing racks, while the Matra Magic 2 (French counterpart of the Sidewinder) can be carried as well. They have an important strike role, being fitted with the French-built Thompson-CSF ATLIS laser designation pod and being capable to deliver Paveway laser-guided bombs. The ATLIS pod was first fitted to Pakistani F-16s in January 1986, thus making the F-16 the first non-European aircraft to be qualified for this pod. Pakistani F-16s are also capable of firing the French AS-30 laser guided missile.

Between May 1986 and November of 1988, PAF F-16s have shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron. Pilots of No. 14 Squadron destroyed the remaining five intruders (two Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and one Su-25). Most of these kills were by the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but at least one (a Su-22) was destroyed by cannon fire. Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mamood is credited with three of these kills. At least one F-16 was lost in these battles, this one in an encounter between two F-16s and six Afghan Air Force aircraft on April 29, 1987. However, the lost F-16 appears to have been an "own goal", having been hit by a Sidewinder fired by the other F-16. The unfortunate F-16 pilot ejected safely.



[This message has been edited by Tazz (edited January 04, 2001).]

[aabhutta]

Some PAF (Pakistani airforce) guys told me that the "own" kill of the F-16 was a deliberate action in trying to force the Regan regime to give us the E-3 AWACS as our early warning was not good enough. PAF was offered E-2 but they rejected it and then we were slapped with sanctions and now for the last 10 years we have been looking for an alternatives as IAF (Indian airfoce) just got an A-50 from the Russians for a two year lease....

[aabhutta]

[aabhutta]

This is more interesting
courtsey of www.pakdef.com and www.pakmilitary.com

'Shahbaz' over Golan
Written by: M Kaisar Tufail
Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a cease-fire; it was therefore decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria it was another story.

The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 squadron, 'Alpha' Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.

Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the call-sign "Shahbaz" was formidable in size -- all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the air-shafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the "qehva" session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to base -- this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km.

The limited fuel of their early model MiG--21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the "takka tak" at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-III-CJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (it takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gun-sight, the star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn't as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter 'J' in Mirage-IIICJ stood for 'Jewish', it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of Sonic bangs over Damascus. (word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused). His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.

As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.

The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother by the Syrians, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, they explained.

Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.

The dogfight over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks anyone could have got the kill had he been "Shahbaz-8" on that fateful day. Sattar and his leader Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, were awarded two of Syria's highest decorations for gallantry, the Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja'at. The government of Pakistan awarded them a Sitara-e-Jur'at each. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF's elite Combat Commanders' School and the premier PAF Base Rafiqui. He retired recently as an Air Commodore.


Copyright © PakDef. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without express written permission of PakDef is prohibited.

[Warlord]

quote:Originally posted by Death_119:
Well Syria got some new jets so I heard and a Su27 oucccchhhhhh . and the IAF will get during the next 5 years more then 200 new F-16I .
its seems someone is cooking a small war here.
Well lets hope this one will stay at falcon4 and not next to my home.

Hey there Death119,

you know, when I was preparing DEM2L for release I was testing in on Israel map. And, I was wondering ... maybe you can help me. Where is the Harmageddon place? I heard once it`s a mountain and something about the valley of Megiddo.

thanks,
have a nice day

[Death_119]

Well yeah the end of the world will begin in meggido so the say. where is it i will have to check. i know where is the meggido airfild but i guess it isn't the same place.




[This message has been edited by Death_119 (edited January 06, 2001).]